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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top11-14-2006 05:42:59 PM

Suyo
Tenjou Tilter
From: Washington
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 82

The Swords

I was wondering.. Could somebody post a picture of the sword each character uses (real, preferable but from the show is okay, too) And its name?
Sankyoo~


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#2 | Back to Top11-14-2006 07:00:05 PM

Hinotori
The Notable Death Mantis
From: Soviet Ohiostan
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 1333

Re: The Swords

YAY WIKIPEDIA for having an obscene amount of information.

Utena, Juri, Ruka, Kanae, Shiori: Rapier
(I'm not POSITIVE what the sword of Dios is, but if memory serves me right it might also be a rapier. The blade looked a little thick, though.)

Miki, Kozue: Epee

Touga, Saionji, Wakaba, Keiko: Katana (at first)

Touga: Longsword (later)

Nanami, Mitsuru: Scimitar (coupled with generic dagger)

Mikage: Sabre

This list isn't complete since I'm lazy. There are pictures at teh links.


Hinotori made this post, and then went back and changed it later. Such is life.


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#3 | Back to Top11-14-2006 07:05:40 PM

Suyo
Tenjou Tilter
From: Washington
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 82

Re: The Swords

If Mikage uses a Sabre, wouln't that make the Sword of Dios a sabre, too?

You know, since..Mikage is basically Utena's warped self (something like that..) =_=


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#4 | Back to Top11-14-2006 08:30:28 PM

angelicreation
The Breast Saviour
From: Denver, CO
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 1323
Website

Re: The Swords

Hinotori wrote:

I'm not POSITIVE what the sword of Dios is, but if memory serves me right it might also be a rapier. The blade looked a little thick, though.

The Sword of Dios is a saber, though it handles exactly like the preferred weapon whomever the current champion wishes it to.  Which is why Utena can miraculously change styles to match whomever she is facing.


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#5 | Back to Top11-15-2006 01:11:01 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: The Swords

Juri actually doesn't use a rapier, despite being a fencer. What she uses is a lightweight cut-and-thrust sword, essentially a longsword that was designed for duelling. If you take a look at the Tizona del Cid, the quintessential example of the duelling longsword, you'll see that it's very similiar to Juri's sword. http://www.dondeleo.com/images/emporium/products/thumbnails/catalog_vecchio_sito/coltello/XL520.jpg

I didn't get a close look at the Sword of Dios in the anime, but in the manga it's double-edged, which makes it unlikely to be a typical sabre. Lightice compared it to a (relatively) modern sidesword, which is a pretty good comparison but the Sword of Dios doesn't have a tapered blade. It seems to defy an easy definition, but it seems most similar to the 17th century small sword, which evolved out of a need for a rapier-like weapon that was easier to use in close quarters. http://www.theknifeconnection.com/ProductImages/coldsteel/88SMS%5B1%5D.jpg

Last edited by ShatteredMirror (11-15-2006 01:12:43 AM)


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#6 | Back to Top11-15-2006 02:21:21 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: The Swords

Miki, Kozue: Epee

But it doesn't have an épée hilt and also seems sturdier. It's a quite typical rapier, actually, with a thrusting blade and basket hilt. If I had to guess, I'd say its Spanish style - Italian rapiers tended to have more elaborate hilts, which would have been a serious pain to animate.

Juri actually doesn't use a rapier, despite being a fencer. What she uses is a lightweight cut-and-thrust sword, essentially a longsword that was designed for duelling.

"Cut-and-thrust" is a modern term and I believe its used mainly among SCA-members, though I may be mistaken, there. As I understand it, a cut-and-thrust sword usually has a rapier-like hilt. Then again, the term may be used of more wide range of blades, than I'm aware of. I'm more at home with historical European blades.
But yes, Juri's sword is a lightweight version of a longsword or a broadsword - as I've watched her duels, again, it almost seems like the hilt's lenght varies between the shots, so its difficult to tell, which one it is. She uses it like a rapier, though - presumably result of her modern fencing training.

I didn't get a close look at the Sword of Dios in the anime, but in the manga it's double-edged, which makes it unlikely to be a typical sabre. Lightice compared it to a (relatively) modern sidesword, which is a pretty good comparison but the Sword of Dios doesn't have a tapered blade. It seems to defy an easy definition, but it seems most similar to the 17th century small sword, which evolved out of a need for a rapier-like weapon that was easier to use in close quarters.

The Sword of Dios really can't be a smallsword, although the hilt bears a striking resemblance, since the blade is too strong and wide. It'd be a serious handicap, going against any other blade in the series with a smallsword. You'd see just how tiny that sword in the picture is, if you'd put it alongside a standard longsword.
The sidesword, as a design isn't modern, at all - it was most widely used in the 16th and 17th centuries, first alongside longswords and later alongside rapiers. The name "sidesword" is of modern origin, but the sword-design, itself is old. Originally it didn't have an English name, but was known by its Italian one, spada da lato, that is still widely in use.
True, the Sword of Dios doesn't have a tapered edge, but that isn't an absolute neccecity for a sidesword - it only needs to be able to do both rapier and longsword-attacks and the Sword of Dios seems to be capable of both.


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#7 | Back to Top11-15-2006 05:50:31 AM

Hinotori
The Notable Death Mantis
From: Soviet Ohiostan
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 1333

Re: The Swords

Haha, teaches me from for stealing information from the wikipederasts without quality-checking my work. (I was gonna dooo it later)

Just confirming what everyone else said about the Juri thing. I didn't even look at the pictures of her, but from what I can see that's probably a longsword.  I've never seen a hilt quiet that elabourate on a sidesword, which is what confuses me. It is, in a lot of ways a typical longsword but the design of the gaurd doesn't really lend itself to being used in the same way. Sidesword may be it.

AND BEFORE ANYONE CAN MENTION IT: I need more pictures of Nanami. That's the only one left I'm having doubts about, and it's mainly the "generic dagger."


Hinotori made this post, and then went back and changed it later. Such is life.


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#8 | Back to Top11-15-2006 07:09:41 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: The Swords

Hinotori wrote:

Haha, teaches me from for stealing information from the wikipederasts without quality-checking my work. (I was gonna dooo it later)

Wikipedia has fairly good info, really, but it's quite scattered. Many sword-types resemble each other so much, that you need to get to see several pictures, before you can decide what fits so closely.

I've never seen a hilt quiet that elabourate on a sidesword, which is what confuses me. It is, in a lot of ways a typical longsword but the design of the gaurd doesn't really lend itself to being used in the same way. Sidesword may be it.

Uhh...No. As I showed in another thread, this is a typical sidesword-design:
http://www.christianfletcher.com/Site/Sidesword_files/HPIM0006.jpg
As you can see, the most obvious feature of a sidesword is the relatively simple basket hilt, which Juri's sword lacks. However, the resemblance to the Sword of Dios is obvious. Juri's sword is either a longsword or a broadsword. The difference between the two is just the length of the hilt - a longsword can be - and usually is - used with two hands, while a broadsword is only meant for one. Juri fights solely with one hand, so I consider a broadsword the more likely possibility, but the length of the hilt is difficult to determine.

AND BEFORE ANYONE CAN MENTION IT: I need more pictures of Nanami. That's the only one left I'm having doubts about, and it's mainly the "generic dagger."

It's a curved dagger of Middle Eastern design and apparently goes along with her scimitar. My knowledge of the Middle Eastern blades and fighting styles is almost nonexistent, so I have no idea what the name it has, offically or if Nanami's style of fighting with both scimitar and dagger has any equivalent in real life. She claims to have adopted her brother's style, which would be kendo, but I don't think there are two-bladed kendo-styles, out there and in any case, they wouldn't be designed for scimitars or daggers.

EDIT: I may have been slightly hasty with my talk about épées. While Miki's sword cannot be a modern épée, I've noted that some rapiers are described as "épée-bladed". As for now, I have no idea just what blade-design that implies, so I'm not sure if to apply it to Miki's sword or not.

Last edited by Lightice (11-15-2006 07:12:38 AM)


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#9 | Back to Top11-15-2006 07:41:06 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: The Swords

If Juri's sword isn't a rapier then neither can Shiori's be one since she's using the same sword. However, if you look at these pics you'll notice that the blade's thickness varies.

http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/maison/Group19.jpg
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/maison/Couple12.jpg
Or maybe it's just me :/
And her sword design varies, too. It has some engravings in the hilt in some pics, and in others (like the one above) it doesn't.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v212/ … f567ed.jpg - with the engravings.
http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/seitokaidv … lery15.jpg - another one


Also, here's a pic of Nanami's dagger http://www.ohtori.nu/gallery/seitokaidv … lery26.jpg


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#10 | Back to Top11-15-2006 07:18:21 PM

CMK
Rose Bride
Registered: 11-12-2006
Posts: 100

Re: The Swords

Lightice wrote:

She claims to have adopted her brother's style, which would be kendo, but I don't think there are two-bladed kendo-styles, out there and in any case, they wouldn't be designed for scimitars or daggers.

Actually, I believe there are several kenjutsu styles which teach the use of a katana and wakizashi in tandem.  While they wouldn't be allowed in a regulation kendo match today, some of these would be taught.  It's entirely possible for Touga to know one without using it in the duel arena, as well, especially if he considers two blades a violation of the rules of the Rose Seal, which he seems to.  Adapting it to a scimitar/dagger combo would be trickier, but then, Nanami's arguably one of the worse duelists.  Could just be that she's using the wrong swords.

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#11 | Back to Top11-15-2006 08:58:43 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: The Swords

Hmm, well that explains how Touga broke Juri's Sword in one blow.. it wasn't her sword... wasn't expecting that.


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#12 | Back to Top11-16-2006 01:16:49 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: The Swords

"Cut-and-thrust" is used by the SCA but it's generally used by modern sword lovers to describe any sword that can be used for both cutting and thrusting, from the smallsword to the lovely oversized lowlander greatswords.

As for the longsword/broadsword debate, it depends on how you use the terms. I've seen "longsword" used most often to describe a single handed double-edged sword usually dating later than the 16th century, often used interchangeably with "arming sword." Two-handed swords I've seen more often referred to as "greatswords" or simply "two-handed swords" or even "bastard swords" though that term is typically reserved for the hand-and-a-half sword.

EDIT: I checked the specs on that smallsword and it's got a 31" blade and is 38" long overall, making it only two inches shorter than the Pizarro that Lightice posted - making it a probable match for the Sword of Dios.

Last edited by ShatteredMirror (11-16-2006 01:58:05 AM)


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#13 | Back to Top11-16-2006 02:16:37 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: The Swords

Maarika wrote:

If Juri's sword isn't a rapier then neither can Shiori's be one since she's using the same sword. However, if you look at these pics you'll notice that the blade's thickness varies.

It's not the blade's thickness that alone matters, but also the hilt design. The hilt of Juri's sword is clearly no rapier's basket.

Actually, I believe there are several kenjutsu styles which teach the use of a katana and wakizashi in tandem.

Yeah, I have heard of it, but at least from what my sword-master has told, in practical situation using two long blades simultaneously is next to impossible to do, except by mirroring moves, in which case you'll just move the two blades identically. The benefits are rarely great and you run at risk of getting your blades mixed up. There are manouvers that involve throwing your sword at the enemy, but using them in real life is rarely very smart thing to do.
Sword and dagger go together better - usually the dagger is used for parrying and occasional secondary attack. But as I said, I have no idea if there are suitable manouvers for scimitar and dagger.

"Cut-and-thrust" is used by the SCA but it's generally used by modern sword lovers to describe any sword that can be used for both cutting and thrusting, from the smallsword to the lovely oversized lowlander greatswords.

Except that you can't cut with a smallsword, or even all rapiers. Smallswords typically have a triangular or diamond-shaped blade that doesn't have much of a cutting edge. I don't think there is a single manouver for a smallsword that'd involve cutting. And thrusting with a greatsword...well, I can imagine exactly one situation where that'd be a seriously viable option - when you want to hit your enemy in the eyehole of his helmet, or some other hole in his armour. And in those cases, you usually have to guide the blade in with your left hand. Greatswords aren't exactly manouverable, when thrusting. There are exceptions, ofcourse, depending on the space around you, but generally you don't thrust with a greatsword.

As for the longsword/broadsword debate, it depends on how you use the terms. I've seen "longsword" used most often to describe a single handed double-edged sword usually dating later than the 16th century, often used interchangeably with "arming sword." Two-handed swords I've seen more often referred to as "greatswords" or simply "two-handed swords" or even "bastard swords" though that term is typically reserved for the hand-and-a-half sword.

[sword-elitist]The terminology of swords is variable and many sword-types have several different names. The terms I use come from the treatises of Fiore dei Liberi, who used the term longsword to describe a sword that can be used with either one or two hands, but is preferably used with two. It is more or less the same as a bastard sword, but almost all manouvers described to it involve the use of both hands. Greatswords are different from these for being bigger and usually having two sets of crossguards - the latter isn't the case with Scottish claymores, though, if I remember correctly.
The definition of  broadsword that I use comes from the treatise I.33, also known as the Tower Manuscript. Its definition for a broadsword is a one-handed sword, often used with a dagger or a buckler. Both are ofcourse modern translations of Medieval terms, but those are the terms typically used in classes of Medieval swordsmanship, today.[/sword-elitist] emot-wink


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#14 | Back to Top11-16-2006 02:39:55 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: The Swords

Greatswords are delightful for charging and lopping the heads off of pikes.

As for terms, we may be indeed speaking different languages because I'm a fan of Ewart Oakeshotte myself. I'm looking to buy his book but it's hard to come by in modern printing naturally.


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#15 | Back to Top11-16-2006 06:35:58 PM

CMK
Rose Bride
Registered: 11-12-2006
Posts: 100

Re: The Swords

Lightice wrote:

Yeah, I have heard of it, but at least from what my sword-master has told, in practical situation using two long blades simultaneously is next to impossible to do, except by mirroring moves, in which case you'll just move the two blades identically. The benefits are rarely great and you run at risk of getting your blades mixed up. There are manouvers that involve throwing your sword at the enemy, but using them in real life is rarely very smart thing to do.
Sword and dagger go together better - usually the dagger is used for parrying and occasional secondary attack. But as I said, I have no idea if there are suitable manouvers for scimitar and dagger.

I stand corrected from a practical standpoint.  I'm not entirely convinced this isn't what Ikuhara had in mind anyway, given the lack of attention to detail regarding actual fighting styles, though.

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#16 | Back to Top11-17-2006 03:02:38 AM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: The Swords

It’s a pity that I have not been able to find an equivalent of the ‘Language of Flowers’ for different type of swords used in the duels to describe the meaning behind the sword.

Lightice wrote:

There are manouvers that involve throwing your sword at the enemy, but using them in real life is rarely very smart thing to do.
Sword and dagger go together better - usually the dagger is used for parrying and occasional secondary attack. But as I said, I have no idea if there are suitable manouvers for scimitar and dagger.

Whenever you use a single handed sword with a dagger, the key thing is to get the opponent to focus on the sword so you can use the dagger when your target is at their most vulnerable.

Sword of Dios
http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/spatulasama/diosrapier.jpg

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#17 | Back to Top11-17-2006 05:31:11 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: The Swords

Sword of Dios looks a lot like the sword Oscar in "Rose of Versailles" uses, but sadly I couldn't find a decent picture of it.


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#18 | Back to Top11-17-2006 07:28:10 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: The Swords

Tamago wrote:

Whenever you use a single handed sword with a dagger, the key thing is to get the opponent to focus on the sword so you can use the dagger when your target is at their most vulnerable.

That does happen, but it's generally not the primary purpose of a dagger, if you also have the sword at hand. Dagger's primary purpose, when used with a longer blade, is to parry and lock the enemy's blade so that it can do you no harm and then use your sword to do him harm, instead.
Then again, a classical trick in a dagger fight is to have two daggers instead of one but hide the other one next to your arm. When the enemy is occupied with your main attack, you cut him up close, while he parries. Similar tricks do exist in sword & dagger combinations, but they're less common for the simple reason of avoiding the dagger the enemy is propably holding, as well. While you usually do end up close contact in a swordfight, you should never abandon the chance to kill your enemy from a safer distance.

Essentially swordsmanship can be summed up in two actions: control the enemy's blade and keep your's free. When you control where the enemy's blade is going, you're free to do whatever you want.

It seems that you've edited the Sword of Dios a bit wider than the last time. Good work. Too bad that it'd propably cost around $2000 to have a screen-accurate version made in real life, considering the hilt-decorations and I'd never dare to actually use it...
EDIT: It could perhaps be slightly shorter. If you look, it's considerably shorter than any other blade used by the duellists, except possibly Nanami's scimitar - I can't remember its lenght.

Last edited by Lightice (11-17-2006 07:29:34 AM)


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#19 | Back to Top11-17-2006 01:18:05 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: The Swords

Where... where did you...

Where did you get the sword? I must know!


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#20 | Back to Top11-17-2006 01:57:41 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: The Swords

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Where... where did you...

Where did you get the sword? I must know!

I asked the same question before. The allmighty Photoshop, apparently.

Yes, it's a shame. emot-frown


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#21 | Back to Top11-17-2006 07:30:51 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: The Swords

Lightice wrote:

ShatteredMirror wrote:

Where... where did you...

Where did you get the sword? I must know!

I asked the same question before. The allmighty Photoshop, apparently.

Yes, it's a shame. emot-frown

A shame indeed, it would be the pinnacle of any true SKU fan’s collection, that and exact duplicates of the rings, black and white.

If only I had Photoshop 7.0 instead of the ancient Photoshop 5.0 then I could some real high-class editing.

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#22 | Back to Top11-18-2006 01:26:59 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: The Swords

...I'd been wanting to learn swordsmithing anyway. If I ever get an apprenticeship, this will be my project to prove that I am a full craftsman.

Ah, Photoshop. How I love and hate thee.

But I'm serious about that sword.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#23 | Back to Top11-18-2006 01:29:27 AM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: The Swords

Suyo wrote:

You know, since..Mikage is basically Utena's warped self (something like that..) =_=

Off-topic but... nooo! Don't say that! I'm writing an essay about that! 'Cause... it's true. You start with the pink hair and then you suddenly go "Whoa...".


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