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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top11-19-2008 03:49:51 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8280

Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

Everybody who's a fan of Touga, I've noticed, seems to think that the Touga/Utena pairing would work. Lemme tell you something (and I still haven't seen all the episodes; this comes from reading fanfiction. A lot of fanfiction): It's not gonna happen.

At least, not yet. Give the two a few years to work out their personal lives, then hook them up and see what happens. College, maybe. Maybe when Utena's eighteen, she might find herself attracted to Touga. It can happen, yeah, but generally not during the series or even immediately after that.

So, with that off my chest, I ask of you all: what else do you think could happen, but just not yet? What would take a few months or years of pondering on the parts of the characters before things we take to be fanon can actually have a shot at happening?

Another good one is Juri and Shiori hooking up. Ruka's dead, so who else is Shiori going to go to? But Juri still has issues with Shiori betraying her, and Shiori herself has self-esteem issues. Maybe in a few years, after Anthy walks out on Akio and he finds out that he doesn't have nearly as much power as he did with her by his side, the Panther and the Cruel Innocent can find something everlasting in the middle of all the confusion.

Go on, speak your mind! Just don't bash anybody for what they think. Be civil.


Roses have thorns to stop those who would dare deny their right to live.
Razara's Postulate: For every lover of lesbians out there, there is an equal and opposite attraction to Dippin' Dots.

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#2 | Back to Top11-19-2008 04:22:38 PM

Seitokaichou
Knight of Gates
From: 鳳学園
Registered: 05-20-2008
Posts: 2047
Website

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

BioKraze wrote:

Everybody who's a fan of Touga, I've noticed, seems to think that the Touga/Utena pairing would work. Lemme tell you something (and I still haven't seen all the episodes; this comes from reading fanfiction. A lot of fanfiction): It's not gonna happen.

At least, not yet. Give the two a few years to work out their personal lives, then hook them up and see what happens. College, maybe. Maybe when Utena's eighteen, she might find herself attracted to Touga. It can happen, yeah, but generally not during the series or even immediately after that.

I'm a Touga/Utena fan simply because I don't believe they can be a happy (if not perfect) couple. However, concerning the scenes you mentioned up there, I fantasize those things too; in fact, I like using these fantasies as concepts and inspiration when I write a Touga/Utena fic/drabble. Don't get me wrong though, like my admiration for Juri/Ruka, the unrequited love is what draws me to cherish these pairings for life. I don't believe in happy endings after all (never will) and love to me is always a tragedy. *smiles*


"I pronounce you officially engaged."

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#3 | Back to Top11-19-2008 04:39:05 PM

Etrangere
Rose Smilee
From: Paris
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 134
Website

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

I'm not a Touga/Utena, but, err, what does "would work" mean for a pairing? emot-confused


Yes. You shouldn't be suspicious of Anthy. Her big brother is your watching. There is no war in Ba Sing Se. ~ Dalbun

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#4 | Back to Top11-19-2008 04:56:46 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8280

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

What I mean is (if you're referring to my initial comment, that is) is that some things we think of as fans just wouldn't work out immediately, during the series or the 2-5 months following Anthy's escape from Ohtori. It might take years for a pairing to work (which, I suppose, is the focus of this thread -- would a pairing work now or several years down the road, when everybody's had a chance to grow up), but some pairings could work. Like Touga/Utena (not just then -- she's still got her Prince hang-up and Touga needs to become less of a manwhore) or Juri/Shiori (not just then -- Juri needs to get her priorities straight and Shiori needs to apologise and forget about Ruka).

Does that help?


Roses have thorns to stop those who would dare deny their right to live.
Razara's Postulate: For every lover of lesbians out there, there is an equal and opposite attraction to Dippin' Dots.

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#5 | Back to Top11-19-2008 05:30:40 PM

Etrangere
Rose Smilee
From: Paris
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 134
Website

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

BioKraze wrote:

What I mean is (if you're referring to my initial comment, that is) is that some things we think of as fans just wouldn't work out immediately, during the series or the 2-5 months following Anthy's escape from Ohtori. It might take years for a pairing to work (which, I suppose, is the focus of this thread -- would a pairing work now or several years down the road, when everybody's had a chance to grow up), but some pairings could work. Like Touga/Utena (not just then -- she's still got her Prince hang-up and Touga needs to become less of a manwhore) or Juri/Shiori (not just then -- Juri needs to get her priorities straight and Shiori needs to apologise and forget about Ruka).

Does that help?

Sorry, no. I still don't get it, what "work" means. Does that mean they would never date? That they would never have consensual sex? Does that mean that couldn't literally have sex because their bits wouldn't fit? That they wouldn't be a successful, healthy couple? Does that mean that they wouldn't really love each others? Does that mean that they don't live on the same plane of existence anyway so it's immaterial? And why right after the series? Why not during, before, why not Alternate Universes and Alternate Timelines?


Yes. You shouldn't be suspicious of Anthy. Her big brother is your watching. There is no war in Ba Sing Se. ~ Dalbun

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#6 | Back to Top11-19-2008 06:59:29 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
Posts: 8280

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

Etrangere wrote:

Sorry, no. I still don't get it, what "work" means. Does that mean they would never date? That they would never have consensual sex? Does that mean that couldn't literally have sex because their bits wouldn't fit? That they wouldn't be a successful, healthy couple? Does that mean that they wouldn't really love each others? Does that mean that they don't live on the same plane of existence anyway so it's immaterial? And why right after the series? Why not during, before, why not Alternate Universes and Alternate Timelines?

You bring up good points, Etrangere! By "work," we do mean that they wouldn't go out on a date at that time; we do mean they wouldn't consent to having sex at the time; we do mean that generally, yes, they would not be a successful, healthy, average (I don't use the word "normal" lightly) couple at the time of the series or immediately afterwards. And by immediately, I mean anywhere from the second Anthy leaves Ohtori to about eighteen months after that happens.

As far as dragging the rest of the Multiverse into this (the AUs and ATs)...that's a judgment call, I'd say. But generally, we're dealing with TV series relationships as opposed to movie, manga or movie manga relationships. And even then, we don't have to deal with just relationships. How would Akio cope in the months after Anthy left Ohtori? What would become of the Seitokai in the future? What would become of its former constituents? Would any of it be plausible immediately after the series? Or fifteen years from now?

Stuff like that, that's what I'm hoping this thread generates in a single focussed spot on the forums for all to view and comment upon.


Roses have thorns to stop those who would dare deny their right to live.
Razara's Postulate: For every lover of lesbians out there, there is an equal and opposite attraction to Dippin' Dots.

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#7 | Back to Top11-20-2008 06:07:08 AM

P.D.M.
Touga Topper
From: Budapest, Hungary
Registered: 06-24-2008
Posts: 54

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

Someone tell me how you can get over 5000 posts on IRG and still not finish Utena...

And by the way, wouldn't a Utena's experience with men in Ohtori turn her into a lesbo for life?

Last edited by P.D.M. (11-20-2008 06:08:30 AM)


Cedric X Orube: Finally a pairing I can adore!

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#8 | Back to Top11-20-2008 06:22:05 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
Website

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

I actually agree with BioKraze that Touga/Utena (the lovey dovey version) would only happen post-anime. And knowing Utena, only after some development of Touga's nobility. Which could happen given time (or might not).

I also agree with BioKraze about Juri/Shiori. If we're talking non-angsty "now we love each other, we see the light" type developments, some time and certain actions are needed. After all, Shiori has to change/realise her orientation or get over her homophobia (just my interpretation).

I feel the same way about a loving version of Touga/Saionji. Needs time, needs resolution of friendship angst, forgiveness, exploring issues etc.

I amazingly feel the same way about romantic Utena/Anthy. emot-aaa (Yes, that's right, even about my own fave romantic pairing) It needs time to develop. All the seeds are there, but in the real world they need a little interaction first, and some major resolution before feelings can grow in that direction.

I think that Akio could be redeemed in the future. But a HECK of a lot of stuff has to happen first. Maybe hundreds of years worth of stuff.

Nanami/Tsuwabuki is another future possibility, after he's grown up quite a lot (and she's gotten over some phobias).

I think Anthy wouldn't get over her dark past immediately, and all the years of passive aggression and abuse. When she finds Utena, it might be a little hard for Utena to handle her sometimes.

I think Utena hasn't mastered her "power of Dios", or her "princehood" or the burden of the swords (assuming that any of those things is what happens) after the series. That would all take time. But it would happen.

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#9 | Back to Top11-20-2008 07:14:00 AM

Arki
Dark Whisperer
From: Croatia
Registered: 10-28-2006
Posts: 1120

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

I'd say no couple in Ohtori as long as they're at Ohtori would work.

Which, in a way, is the point of the series. The misguided feelings, the mindfuck and the sex. A happy or even just functioning couple would stick out as a sore thumb in an array of unhappiness and adolescence. But it's all those self-induced struggles that make the series so appealing. Which is why, in my personal opinion, I wouldn't like to see a (theoretical) official continuation of the story. Heck, sometimes the romantic in me doesn't even want to see the fan-created bliss of Himemiya and Utena uniting in a explosion of emotions and newly discovered activities to do in bed. Or Touga and Utena. Or Shiori and Juri. Okay, maybe Shiori and Juri. I have my preferences. emot-redface

But to answer the question... I think any pairing could work the moment they manage to solve their problems. But I like my SKU characters tormented, so whatever appeal some couple used to have in all the angst, would be gone once they're all functioning and happy people. I think it's appropriate to use the chef emoticon now: school-chef

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#10 | Back to Top11-20-2008 08:01:42 AM

Etrangere
Rose Smilee
From: Paris
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 134
Website

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

BioKraze wrote:

[color=#4060C0]You bring up good points, Etrangere! By "work," we do mean that they wouldn't go out on a date at that time; we do mean they wouldn't consent to having sex at the time; we do mean that generally, yes, they would not be a successful, healthy, average (I don't use the word "normal" lightly) couple at the time of the series or immediately afterwards.

I just don't think shipping necessarly means : "thinking they could work as a successful, healthy, average couple that dates and has sex consensually" - especially in SKU where most of the canonical pairings are none of these things - so I like to see it spelled out.

How would Akio cope in the months after Anthy left Ohtori? What would become of the Seitokai in the future? What would become of its former constituents? Would any of it be plausible immediately after the series? Or fifteen years from now?

So... it's more a post about the immediate aftermath of the series in general? That sounds like a cool subject but that wasn't really clear from the initial title and write up.


Yes. You shouldn't be suspicious of Anthy. Her big brother is your watching. There is no war in Ba Sing Se. ~ Dalbun

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#11 | Back to Top11-20-2008 02:47:19 PM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

I would like to think Juri/Shiori would work one day. Actually if they could just be friends while letting go of all the....stuff between them.... that would be okay as well, and it seems the end of the series runs towards that. See the thing is, it always has seemed to me that Juri takes forever to move beyond things. I would think it would take her a very long time to be able to accept Shiori into her heart after being betrayed so. I can see this couple working eventually in the "in ten years lets have tea together" but it really would have to be at least several years for Juri to have the necessary space.

Also I sort of like the idea of Saionji and Wakaba getting together....if Saionji works through whatever anger issues he has. We hope.

Any pairing involving Utena assumes, of course, that Utena can be found by any of them. I feel awfully sorry for Touga at the end of the series so part of me hope he might be able to find her again someday (this is somewhat influenced by the manga I have to admit, and the manga also opens up other discussion).

And also Anthy/Utena, should she ever find her (although I could see them just being friends, as well).


20 threads dead so far.

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#12 | Back to Top11-20-2008 02:59:59 PM

Kaelyndra
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 04-18-2008
Posts: 557

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

I'm in agreement with the Utena/Anthy as romantics. I just don't think Utena could take it. She seems to view their friendship as well above any such trivialities. Anything romantic for her, I think, would threaten the 'pure love' that she feels for Anthy. So, I think it would take a lot of time for Utena to trust any aspect of that type of behavior between them.

As for Juri/Shiori, how did Shiori betray her? Juri mentioned never caring about that one man, and Shiori did come back to apologize. I've always had trouble with people's interpretation of that scene. I just don't see the true betrayal. Misunderstanding, yeah. Naive actions, yeah, but they both had tons of those and Ohtori was full of these types of things. Maybe I'm missing something vital. Probably so. xD

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#13 | Back to Top11-21-2008 12:39:14 PM

Riri-kins
World's End
From: Cloud Nine
Registered: 09-22-2008
Posts: 2346

Re: Things That Wouldn't Happen...Yet

I'd say Utena and Touga have about a forty-eight percent chance of getting married because he probably wouldn't want to settle down until he was at least twenty-five and she would have to lose her naivete. Nevertheless, they are great matches for each other. They just need time to mature.

If she didn't choose Touga then Anthy would find and marry her, although I believe Utena wouldn't remember her at first for some reason. When she finally did they'd go down in history as great humanitarians.

I don't ever see Shiori loving Juri back. However, I do think she will reconcile with her many years later and Juri will be satisfied with her friendship. Somewhere in between she'll have found her dream girl.

Saionji will not meet a pleasant end. He'll probably be a financial success, but his marriage will be a disaster and he'll drive away his children. He'd regret everything and try to reconcile with them on his deathbed, but it'll be too little too late.  Only Touga will stick by him through thick and thin.  Touga will be to Saionji as Boxer was to Benjamin.

Finally,  I see Wakaba noticing Tatsuya in college and living happily ever after with him.


Proud Saionji and Mikage fangirl
My Utena fanfiction: http://www.fanfiction.net/u/2000115/Riri-kins

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