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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top11-17-2008 10:54:26 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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The "Why" of Akio

We've talked about this in the past, but I would like to open a discussion regarding Akio's character, specifically... Why is he the way he is?  What are his personal goals?  What is his personal view of "how the world works" and why did he come to that conclusion?

To start, I'd like to post from episode 39.

Akio:  She certainly resembles the old me.
Akio:  I used to be like that.
Akio:  I used to think that sincerity was valuable...
Akio:  ...and that it was the one and only way to change the world.
Akio:  But sincerity by itself changes nothing.
Akio:  Without power, one finds themself merely depending on others to live.
Akio:  I've taken enough risks to buy the power to change the world.
Akio:  That's how the world works-

This section has always confused me, because it seems to me that Akio is talking about two different things--sincerity versus power?  Isn't it more like powerlessness versus power?  There's no reason to think that Akio's ever really been "powerless", so what is he talking about?  Sincerity seems to be an unrelated trait, not a state that is mutually exclusive to having power.

What is about Utena that reminds Akio so much of himself?  She's a girl and (arguably, I know) never really becomes "The Prince"...but either way Utena certainly isn't wearing that mantle at that particular moment.  Is this more of Akio's "there never was a Prince in the first place...except there was and it was me, but that me is dead" confusion?

This may be painfully obvious to some, and to others it may tread on toes, so feel free to say "duh" or disagree, but I think I am finally coming to understand this quote.

The fundamental difference between Utena and Akio can be best analyzed in how they deal with Anthy (mythologically, the world goddess).  Akio says that he once thought of Anthy as a goddess who sacrificed herself for the one she loved, but in truth she is a witch (even if maybe she wasn't at some point).  Utena argues that Akio is the one that's making Anthy a witch. 

Utena deals with Anthy only with the best intentions.  Utena wants to help Anthy, wants to save Anthy, wants to be Anthy's friend.  Utena has only one lapse in her intentions to deal sincerely with Anthy and with Anthy's best interests in mind.

To Akio, Anthy is a partner in his schemes and he alternately treats her as his secret princess, his partner, and his slave.  What is he really doing, though?  Akio is manipulating Anthy by treating her as she wants to be treated--with liberal heaping of guilt to ensure she doesn't reassess their situation.  He uses her as the Rose Bride, as his sacrifice, as his tool.  (This is not to imply that Anthy is powerless in their relationship--that would be naive.  Anthy has her eyes open much of the time...but there are a few places where her eyes are closed.  Akio can and does use this to his advantage, just as Anthy uses Akio's weaknesses to her advantage.)

Utena sees Anthy as a Princess to be saved from a sad fate.  Akio sees Anthy as a Witch who can't be anything else.  To Utena, the appropriate way to deal with Anthy (and the world) is to approach it with good intentions.  To Akio, the appropriate way to deal with Anthy (and the world) is to use it before it uses him.

Above, Akio is saying that at one point he would have approached Anthy (the world) the same way -- with sincere good intentions and with love.  But he has learned better.  If you approach people with sincere good intentions (such as Dios trying to do his best to rescue everyone), they will use you up and blame you when you can't do any more for them.  The truth of Anthy (the world) is that she is a manipulative and selfish Witch, not a sweet selfless princess who needs saving.  The power Akio has and wants more of is the power to treat Anthy (the world and everyone in it) as an object to be used for his own enjoyment.

It seems an evil way to behave to Utena.  But to Akio it's simply the truth of the way the world works.  If you go through life trying to be a good person, all you do is open yourself up to manipulation.  Once you admit to yourself that everyone around you is selfish and will use you if they can, you realize that approaching others with sincerity makes you a fumbling idiot.  The only way to live happily is to have the power to get what you want from other people--to use other people's weakness and sincerity against them.


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#2 | Back to Top11-17-2008 12:13:53 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: The "Why" of Akio

Well, if it helps, I've heard it translated to "persistence" instead of "sincerity".  To keep trying and trying, even if there is no result.  Akio and Anthy's repetitive attempts to regain the power of the prince can be seen as persistent -and, as Akio has said and realized, fruitless without power and sacrifice to back it up.  He is convinced that means are not ends in and of themselves; you have to have something to show for your work.  What is the point of playing prince if you save no one?

EDIT:  But I like the conclusions you have come to with sincerity.  I think that both versions boil down to the same thing ; sincerity for it's own sake, persistence at being a good person for it's own sake.  Akio can no longer find any intrinsic value in either of these things.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (11-17-2008 12:18:32 PM)

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#3 | Back to Top11-17-2008 04:07:57 PM

Stormcrow
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From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
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Re: The "Why" of Akio

I think you hit it when you mentioned Akio's goals. Because for him, that's all there is anymore. As Dios, he expended Herculean effort to save the girls of the world, and in the end, it was for nothing. No matter how hard he tried, there were still girls who needed saving, and all of his efforts had only made them dependent on him. I would say that Akio lost his faith in the inherent morality of action, and dedicated himself wholly to results. In his own mind, what he's doing and the way he treats people probably make perfect sense. He's chosen his goal and he's doing whatever it takes to achieve it. From that perspective, doing things in any other way seems like naivete, and even self-indulgence. After all, Utena is getting something out of her "helping" Anthy. Naji's jibe about community service hours was a nice barb, because early on in the show, Utena basically is thinking that way.

Utena on the other hand, is trying to do the "right" thing, and ultimately disregards the consequences of her actions. Because it is the means that give validity to the ends, rather than the ends justifying the means. If what she does is inherently right, it doesn't matter what bad things may happen as a result (getting stabbed say), because she behaved correctly. To her, Akio seems self-centered and calculating, because he doesn't even think that the ideals she's struggling for exist, so how could he acknowledge their validity.

Add to this that Akio has already done that. He tried it Utena's way, and he "knows" it doesn't work. So it's kind of natural that he would condescend when speaking to her.


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#4 | Back to Top11-18-2008 12:14:18 AM

Katzenklavier
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From: Back of your thoughts.
Registered: 09-13-2008
Posts: 1120

Re: The "Why" of Akio

I would say that Akio lost his faith in the inherent morality of action, and dedicated himself wholly to results.

Stormcrow, I think that was a brilliant analysis. Akio has been phrased by many people as being "amoral" and dismissive of conventions. After all, doesn't his actions suggest a fondness for adhering to the truth anarchy of existence? Doesn't he take pleasure in displaying the meaninglessness of his victim's actions, unraveling their convictions? Yes, but there's a conflict there. Akio is intensely aware of morals. His very existence is a duality. He purports the power of the projector, but there's one key aspect that everyone seems to have neglected mentioning...

What everyone wants is in the castle. Including Dios...

Dios is the father of all other delusions because he is Akio's.

The Prince is the epitome of purity and nobility. A selfless, infallible, bloodless symbol. Like an angel, he descends from the sky and solves everything without any hope of personal gain. Akio is his shadow - the loss of faith in any tangible sustaining morality, in the sake of good for its own end. Yet, his feelings towards the Prince are complex. On one hand, it is the point of his origination and perhaps a source of a long-buried conscience. After all, Akio speaks to Dios once, and notes how Dios is looking at him with perhaps disgust. On the other, he seems to recognize that it's a pure symbol devoid of any real substance. Despite this, he continues to pursue it. I have two theories for this:

1. Dios is his other self. A manifestation of his inherent conflict. Like Hel and her dual sides of life and death, so too are Dios and Akio intrinsically linked. Halves of the same balance. Akio seeks to join with Dios and gain completion. In this, he would become embodiment of both the pure and profane, and distinctions between both would cease to exist. Yet this is an impossibility that represents the true nature of Akio's downfall and departure from his origin.

2. This is my preferred theory. Dios is Akio's "shining thing." His miracle. Because of his prominence, it is his delusion that plays the largest role in the power of the castle. The Prince represents the goodness at its most superficial yet pure. It is the power of faith in morals, in selfless nobility. Akio desires to have that once more. His own loss of faith manifests itself in the desire for vengeance: to break the faith of others. His disillusionment provides the need to break down the moral codes of others and reveal their emptiness. In truth, it's probably a combination of both of these two theories.

Anthy serves as a constant reminder of his own fallen self, and her position and sacrifice is a reflection for a deep and seething wrath against her. Utena, as the only one who joins with Dios,  is a point of fixation because of what Stormcrow describes. She's the representation of what Akio once believed himself to be. He seeks to possess what she represents by joining with her the best way he knows how - sex (which is of course so much more in SKU). Remember that his initial proposal to Utena was for her to become his princess. In that way, in that sort of ceremonial marriage reflecting the uniting of male/female, they could be joined. I believe he meant what he said (in a way). After all, in his desires, Utena was represented as his true Rose Bride - someone who would willingly accommodate and complete him, but devoid of Anthy the slave's resentment and poison. I fully believe he wanted to keep her purity intact, but wanted to own it for himself. When she rejected him, however, it became necessary to dispose of her and revert to his original plan - although I'm still quite sure he would have tried to use her sword.

It becomes even more twisted, however, if Akio believed that what he was doing was out of good. That if he joined with Dios once more, the sacrifices of countless souls and the torture of his own sister would be justified. It allows for complete and utter single-mindedness towards a goal and the overwhelming belief that the ends justify the means.

I disagree with most of the scholarship on Akio that presents him solely as a sleek but one-sided villain obsessed solely with power and sex. To do so ignores the complexities of a character as mysterious as his sister's. His relationship with both Utena and Anthy suggests that he has deeper capacities - guilt, conflict, bitterness, and perhaps a sort of twisted empathy. Most of all, I reject the idea that he fully believes in his own philosophies regarding inherent meaningless. After all, someone who truly believed in the projector wouldn't seek to tear down the Rose Gate. In the end, Akio is the biggest player of his own game and something of a hypocrite. Furthermore, he is in the one most deeply embedded in his own coffin, and it is hinted by Anthy that while every single character in the game, from Touga to Shiori, will mature: he will be trapped by his delusions forever.

Last edited by Katzenklavier (11-18-2008 12:17:00 AM)


We must go forward, not backward. Upward, not forward. And always twirling, twirling, twirling towards freedom.

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#5 | Back to Top11-18-2008 06:53:42 AM

sharnii
Pharaoh of Phanstuff
From: Melbourne Australia
Registered: 08-10-2008
Posts: 2416
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Re: The "Why" of Akio

*claps hands excitedly at conversation on Akio's "why"*

For me Akio and Dios are hopelessly entwined in a love/hate relationship, which manifests itself as Akio's driving motivation. Here's my logic:
Dios (name related to "God") as the archetypal "Prince" was a symbol of all that is saving and good.
Akio (name related to Venus/refers to himself as Morning Star/aka Lucifer ie the devil).
[Note: I realize Lucifer may or may not be Satan from strictly bible references...there's not a lot of info about Satan actually in the bible. But Lucifer is popularly considered to be Satan and the anime/manga run with that interpretation]

Dios died and Akio was born out of one crushing realization. That which the Prince wanted to do (save all the girls in the world from peril), he was struggling to do (had more compassion than he did strength), and in the end couldn't do (courtesy of Anthy's martyrdom on his behalf).
I repeat, Dios couldn't do that which he most longed to do.
So he died, and Akio rose from his ashes (although as we see in the anime interpretation, Dios lingers as a ghost, and is still princely and acting to support nobility. So there is something about Dios that is stronger than death, or some part of Akio is holding onto Dios...).
Now imnsho, there is none so evil as one who was once good, and who therefore in a deep down hidden place longs to be good.
Or at least remembers what it was like to be good...and sometimes misses it. school-eng101 Enter Akio.

Poor poor Akio. How bitter and aching he must have originally been to have undergone such a transformation. Having failed in his purpose for living, Akio becomes the best at the opposite purpose. Rather than being good and saving the girls of the world, he is now evil and corrupts/damns the boys/girls of the world instead. But although he embraces the "pleasures of sin" as it were (read he has himself a whole lotta sex), and has become the very monster that he once saved princesses from, he still can't find fulfillment. He's fallen (like the morning star from heaven), and lost his true way.

I think this can be seen in his visit to the grave of Dios, and his perpetual and unending desire to reclaim the "power of Dios" (ie castle of eternity) for himself. He is missing that which he used to have when he was Dios. He doesn't realize that exactly, but he craves what he perceives to be the power. What he doesn't recognize is that the only way to open the rose gate/enter the castle/be possessed by Dios is to enter into becoming or being Dios. Akio would have to become Dios again to regain Dios' power; he would have to regain his lost nobility. He would have to use his power to save and protect instead of to please himself. He would have to "hate lies" and tell the truth, rather than drip with lies toward his own gain. Not gonna happen...

So I think Akio has an external motivation (known to himself) fighting against an internal motivation (that he is blind to).
As the anti-prince or villain of the piece, he wants to un-save or corrupt young "innocents". That is he wants to stop them growing up and stepping out into responsible freedom, and he does this by exploiting their childish weaknesses and foibles.
As the ex-prince who longs for what he once had, he needs the power of Dios (but he doesn't know that he misses being Dios and this is part of what drives him). So he corrupts the "innocents" around him in order to use them to try and get it for him. Meanwhile the ghost of Dios (still a part of Akio) acts to resurrect nobility in the case of Utena...

Where does Anthy fit into this? Well without going into too much detail, and sticking to what reflects on Akio, he has two motivations toward her as well.
As the anti-prince he wants to corrupt her (and has), by playing on her love for her brother in their childhood and by exploiting her submission and the "sword situation".
As the ex-prince who longs for what he once had, he needs Anthy. She took the power from Dios...logically she must be involved in getting it back. So he uses her/solicits her support in the dueling game.
Also he hates her on some level for taking him away from Dios.
Also he loves her on some level for freeing him from the bondage of Dios' responsibility.
Also he doesn't care about her, because he only cares about himself: after all he used to care about everybody and it literally destroyed him.

So to summarize and synthesize:

rhy wrote:regarding Akio's character, specifically... Why is he the way he is?  What are his personal goals?  What is his personal view of "how the world works" and why did he come to that conclusion?

Akio is this way because he's fallen from being Dios.

His personal goals are to be the opposite to Dios, and also to regain Dios (although he doesn't realize this clearly).

His personal view of the way the world works is that it must undergo a revolution (he hopes this can happen by subterfuge and manipulation, and persists in the dueling game). Although he rules the world he has created (Ohtori), he hasn't found complete fulfillment. The world needs to change. Akio thinks it will if he regains the power of Dios (which he imagines will give him even more selfish gratification which will fill his lingering emptiness. But it won't. He needs Dios himself). Unfortunately the power of Dios is out of Akio's reach since he has lost his nobility.

He came to the conclusion of revolution because it is his nature to want more. He wants to shine (more darkly!). He wants the most power. He wants to be complete without Dios and wants Anthy to exist completely for him.

All in all I find Akio to be a very tragic figure. Evil sure...but tragic. Damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

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#6 | Back to Top11-20-2008 04:27:11 PM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: The "Why" of Akio

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

Well, if it helps, I've heard it translated to "persistence" instead of "sincerity".

I was curious, so I went and checked. school-sherlock The word we're looking at here is hitamukisa, the noun form of the adjective hitamuki (ひたむき). My dictionary translates it as single-minded, as in committed to a single purpose; or "single-hearted" (which sounds weird in English; maybe "whole-hearted" would be better?), as in sincere, honest, faithful, having integrity. To, uh, hitamuki-ly make an effort (ひたむきに努力する) is to make an honest effort. So I guess it has implications of both the interpersonal-relations sincerity, and of persistence or deep commitment. Given the context, my guess would be that Akio is referring more to the latter, but I suppose he could also mean both.

Thank you, website that has the complete script of Utena in Japanese!
http://homepage1.nifty.com/~yu/utena/index.html

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#7 | Back to Top11-20-2008 04:39:19 PM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: The "Why" of Akio

I used "sincerity" because it's the Utena Translation Project's pick--and I have tended to trust their choices.

I believe that the CPM subtitles use "persistence" -- which has made the quote easier to understand.

I think the definition of "sincere, honest, faithful, having integrity" fits my thoughts in my first post...

I'm writing a response it's just gotten long and I haven't finished....


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#8 | Back to Top11-21-2008 06:48:32 AM

hollow_rose
Egghead
From: Ohio
Registered: 10-26-2008
Posts: 1074

Re: The "Why" of Akio

sharnii wrote:

All in all I find Akio to be a very tragic figure. Evil sure...but tragic. Damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels like this. I always feel bad for him the last ep when Anthy abandons him. He's stuck in his role, much more than any of the duelists, or, as it turns out, even Anthy. Whether he's the shadow of a prince or a fallen angel-type devil, he still is condemned to play this role. Apparently he is the only one who can't escape.


20 threads dead so far.

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#9 | Back to Top11-21-2008 12:09:48 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: The "Why" of Akio

hollow_rose wrote:

sharnii wrote:

All in all I find Akio to be a very tragic figure. Evil sure...but tragic. Damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

I'm glad I'm not the only one who feels like this. I always feel bad for him the last ep when Anthy abandons him. He's stuck in his role, much more than any of the duelists, or, as it turns out, even Anthy. Whether he's the shadow of a prince or a fallen angel-type devil, he still is condemned to play this role. Apparently he is the only one who can't escape.

Sorry but I disagree a bit.  I have never felt that Akio is 'condemned', so to speak, by anything other than himself.  It would be one thing if he simply stopped going out of his way to help others and played the forgotten prince who sits around doing nothing and wasting his potential, but instead he goes beyond that line and actively uses what he does have left at his disposal to use and hurt others so that he can achieve his own ends.

You have to save yourself.  Others can help you, but in the end, there is always a measure of personal responsibility that everyone needs to take in order to grow up.

Anthy doesn't say that he is destined to remain this way, only that he "can stay here in his cozy little coffin."  Akio's past and lost power are part of the reason why he is who he is, but they are not an unstoppable force keeping him ignorant and hopeless.  Just like everyone else in the series, Akio can save himself, though unlike the rest, he is simply less inclined to ditch his role because it's a tad more fun than playing a rose bride.

Anthy leaving may change how comfortable he is with his situation and himself, though, and maybe that is what will prompt him to want to change.  Maybe.

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#10 | Back to Top11-21-2008 05:49:08 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: The "Why" of Akio

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

sharnii wrote:

All in all I find Akio to be a very tragic figure. Evil sure...but tragic. Damned if he does, and damned if he doesn't.

Sorry but I disagree a bit.  I have never felt that Akio is 'condemned', so to speak, by anything other than himself.

I'm of two minds on this. I don't think he's trapped in his role any more than Anthy was. He is the prince/anti-prince, but Anthy was the witch, and just as vital a figure. At the same time, he is also damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. For Anthy, once she realized she had a choice, one clearly outweighed the other. Akio doesn't see that he has a choice yet because he doesn't want to, but if he did see a choice, it would be a further hurdle for him because hey, that's a hard decision to make. Unlike Anthy, Akio's life in the coffin just ain't that bad. At all. That may change with her gone, for better or worse, but as it stands, Akio has no personal reason to want to change his position. The only real argument for leaving it is if he ever decided man should be left to screw it all up themselves. You could spin that as realizing they have free will and he has no call to tamper with their development or their thoughts, or you can take the cynic's route and he decides he doesn't really need to encourage people to turn on each other, to be vicious, to be self-centered. Most of them are great at that themselves, to the point where really...they don't need him. And maybe that's why Anthy could abandon her 'position' as the archetypal witch. People have found the witches in themselves. They don't require a representation anymore. Did people ever find their inner princes? Not most of them, not really, but they certainly seem to track down their inner anti-prince. Akio is outdated software.

This is actually reminding me a lot of The Sandman, which has characters who decide to bail on their positions in the order of things for different reasons. Lucifer* gives up the keys to hell because he's tired of the job and tired of knowing he's just doing god's will by being there anyway. Destruction of the Endless leaves his post for more 'noble' reasons, feeling people should be left to that decision themselves.

I don't think Akio is condemned by nature. He's condemned by his own personality and his investment in maintaining his life as it is. One just can't see any sort of Utena coming along and changing his worldview until he sees the error of his ways, or at least decides he should leave decisions to mankind, and unlike Lucifer in Sandman, he doesn't seem to appear likely to tire of his job. It's not that he cannot leave the coffin. It's that, well, why should he? Would you? I think that's what is tragic about him. At face value, the grass is greener on his side, so why leave? What he'll never learn is the grass on the other side is a bit duller because it's not only walked on by one, solitary figure. Akio's alone in his world, and he'll never realize that's something he should be pitied for.

*Lucifer? Akio? Comparisons? SAY IT AIN'T SO.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#11 | Back to Top10-18-2011 10:05:48 AM

Jackomolongo
New Student
Registered: 10-18-2011
Posts: 1

Re: The "Why" of Akio

I just wanted to let my oppinnion about Akio. First of all sorry for my english because i'm spanish, catalan, being exact. In my oppinion he represents Lucifer, the angel (good akio) that betrayed god and became the devil (bad akio). That might explain the stars staff that he explained (his name comes from the star of lucifer). also, there is a book wich name is something like "gospel of witches" that talks about Aradia, the sister of lucifer, that is a witch. This one would be Anthy, that is also treated as a whitch on the serial.

Of course there is no relation between the behaviour of anthy, that is a "witch" that saved the prince she loved, and this Aradia, that is an extrange form to call the goddess Artemisa for a crystian guy that wanted to write a wich book, but won't you deny me the lucifer duality of akio, who is concidentally named in the serial.

It's possible that this is absolutely wrong, and probably giovanna (that I think that she likes a little bit this guy, akio, am I wrong? xD) has studied the matter more than me, but like I said before, I just wanted to let my oppinion. I hope someone reads and if it's possible, reply or suport this one.

If you want something, lluis.14.jackomolongo@gmail.com

Last edited by Jackomolongo (10-19-2011 09:43:08 AM)

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#12 | Back to Top10-18-2011 05:06:57 PM

malna
Caretaker
From: Poland
Registered: 10-03-2011
Posts: 209

Re: The "Why" of Akio

What an interesting topic. And I don't even have a time to write so I'm just going to touch on a couple of things. Hopefully some day I'll get to develop this.

First of, I don't even like Akio(Dios). But I think I can understand where he's coming from, just a little.

1. I don't believe Dios is a good idea, not at all, and I'd bet Akio would agree. Dios is a fake rather than a real human being. Alas, neither Anthy nor Utena seem to see it that way, at least most of the time they don't. Which must sting.
Akio wants the power of Dios back, that only. He does not long for a big sappy reunion with his former self. According to me.

2. I don't believe Akio feels comfortable within his coffin because I find it worse than any of the others'. He's just numb being stuck in it for no one knows how long.
His sister sealed him away from the world, powers all stripped from him, with herself for him to watch as she was being martyred for him. While he could do absolutely nothing about it.
I mean, Dios, the great damsel-saver. It's a perfect torment. Of course he would hate her and eventually he gets to abuse her in every way he possibly can. He's also completely dependent on her powers and she provides of course - it's her leverage. Cute couple.

Once again I'll quote The Cure lyrics but they ring so 'Akio' to me:

i think i've reached that point
where all the things you have to say
and hopes for something more from me
are just games to pass the time away

please stop loving me
please stop loving me
i am none of these things


Title is 'End' which really really fits.


a lot of hope in one man tent

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#13 | Back to Top08-27-2012 01:54:36 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: The "Why" of Akio

Since I don't wanna start a new thread and clutter up forum space, I'll move my discussion of Akio's Influence in the Outside World with Satyreyes (from http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?p … 24#p245424) here:

satyreyes wrote:
Akio isn't stupid, and his power is extensive within the Academy.  But outside its walls, he has no such control, or else Anthy's departure would be no threat to him.

I wrote

From what we saw in SKU, Utena's parents' funeral seem to happen OUTSIDE Ohtori, and Akio and Anthy both can appear to child-Utena in that outside world as surreal entities to shackle her with the signet, which led the girl to Ohtori eventually.

Miki's Father seems to be located OUTSIDE of Ohtori, when he calls Miki to ask him to speak to his new wife, which from audience POV turns out to be Anthy in a rose bride dress.

And what I said upthread:

    The Mikage Seminar is said to have major POLITICIANS among its attendees (see first black rose ep), so Akio has control over these outside power players too.

From what I can see, Anthy's leaving threatens Akio's scenerio in that he lost a powerful ally in his plans - one who could become his enemy in the future.  But Utena freeing a handful of kids will likely leave very little dent in his scheme of things, as anyone (even the black rose duelists) can become duelists in his world

Satyreyes, if you're still interested in continuing this, fire away emot-dance


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
http://archiveofourown.org/users/gorgeousshutin/works or https://www.fanfiction.net/u/3978886/

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#14 | Back to Top08-27-2012 03:53:55 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: The "Why" of Akio

Sure!  I think there's a much stronger case for the idea that Akio cares very little, if at all, for the world outside the academy.

The first thing I'd like to do is turn the question around on you: why would Akio care what happens outside Ohtori?  What do you think his motivations are that would require him to turn his eyes outward?  Once I know that, I'll have a better idea what precisely we might agree or disagree on.  I do think it's very clear that none of your examples above show that Akio seeks to control the outside world:

Akio and Anthy both can appear to child-Utena in that outside world as surreal entities to shackle her with the signet, which led the girl to Ohtori eventually.

Yes, they can go to the outside world, that much is clear.  But if Akio controlled that world, he would hardly need to lead Utena by the nose to Ohtori Academy, would he?  I think he visits Utena in order to bring her to Ohtori and perpetuate the dueling game, keeping his long-standing charade with Anthy alive.  Akio cares about the outside world as a source of fresh blood for the academy; he doesn't seek to control the outside world per se.

Miki's Father seems to be located OUTSIDE of Ohtori, when he calls Miki to ask him to speak to his new wife, which from audience POV turns out to be Anthy in a rose bride dress.

A confusing scene -- I think it's probably best read to mean that Miki imagines that his father's new wife is someone like Anthy -- but let's take it at face value and say that Anthy is literally the new bride of Miki's father.  If so, this is part of the psychological crisis that leads Miki and Kozue back to the arena.  Akio is manipulating the twins through their father in order to make events at Ohtori unfold the way he wants.  Again, it's Ohtori and not the outside world that he's concerned with.

The Mikage Seminar is said to have major POLITICIANS among its attendees (see first black rose ep), so Akio has control over these outside power players too.

At the risk of stating the obvious, Akio is not Mikage.  Mikage may care about the outside world -- after all, he presumably intends to graduate into it.  But this does not mean that Akio does, and there isn't any evidence that Akio is exerting influence on politicians through Mikage.

From what I can see, Anthy's leaving threatens Akio's scenerio in that he lost a powerful ally in his plans - one who could become his enemy in the future.  But Utena freeing a handful of kids will likely leave very little dent in his scheme of things, as anyone (even the black rose duelists) can become duelists in his world

The way I understand Akio's character, he has no reason to continue the dueling game in Anthy's absence.  He's not dueling because he wants to revolutionize the world.  He probably doesn't even believe that world revolution is possible.  He's dueling because Anthy wishes that Akio could be the Dios from her memory.  Akio doesn't want to be Dios ever again, but if it keeps Anthy in line, he'll pretend that he's aiming for Dios's power.  So he uses the duels to keep a hold on Anthy and the rest of the academy.  His ego trip in the last few episodes is based on the premise that he runs everything, and that Anthy in particular is slavishly loyal to him.  When Anthy leaves, his world is rocked -- he was never the puppetmaster he thought he was -- he couldn't even know the mind of his own sister.  And if Utena helped other people free themselves in the bargain, that just makes matters worse for Akio.  His tower is crumbling.  If he really had influence outside Ohtori, why would he react so strongly to losing his stranglehold over a random private school?

No.  Akio is the corrupt prince of a bubble kingdom, and that's the way he likes it.  This is one aspect of his metaphorical imprisonment by the witch.  Where Dios only ever cared about the outside world to the point of ignoring his sister, Akio has abandoned the outside world and gives his sister lots and lots of attention.  In his car, on his sofa, striding down the halls, Akio exudes the easy confidence of a person who controls the whole universe.  But his universe is the academy, and its students and staff are his subjects.  He has everything he wants, and it's all inside the academy.

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#15 | Back to Top08-27-2012 07:57:12 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: The "Why" of Akio

Hi Satyreyes!

The first thing I'd like to do is turn the question around on you: why would Akio care what happens outside Ohtori?  What do you think his motivations are that would require him to turn his eyes outward?  Once I know that, I'll have a better idea what precisely we might agree or disagree on.  I do think it's very clear that none of your examples above show that Akio seeks to control the outside world.

I'll get to the "why would Akio care what happens outside Ohtori" in a moment; before that, allow me to start this off by stating the obvious:
that my examples clearly show that Akio have already exerted magic over people located in the outside world - Miki's Father seeing Anthy as his would be wife while located outside Ohtori, child-Utena seeing Dios and Anthy in a magical setting while in a church building away from Ohtori, politicians . . . I'll get to that in a bit.

That makes Akio, even post series, sound VERY powerful to me, which is my original point in countering the fangirly view that the post-show, Anthy-less Akio is "weak" somehow; he may not be as strong as he did with Anthy working for him, but compared to the individuals and groups in the "real" world, he stands wayyyy above them with his age-acquired cunning-ness and his clearly supernatural, superhuman powers.

and there isn't any evidence that Akio is exerting influence on politicians through Mikage.

I think miles will vary a lot on this one, considering how Akio is shown to have much power over Mikage, to the point that he can erase Mikage's and Nemuro Hall's existence.  If Mikage can have politicians in his seminar, to the point that the faculty know about it, it is because Akio and Anthy/Mamiya allows him to.  Why would Akio and Anthy/Mamiya allow Mikage to do anything using Ohtori as stage that does not serve their purpose

Think about it, suppose Akio is NOT  exerting influence on politicians through Mikage, then it will mean he is not in complete control of Mikage allying himself with outside politicians, meaning that the outside politicians are coming into Nemuro Hall - the heart of Ohtori - while NOT guided under Akio's control?  Would an entity like Akio want outside world power players - who are not influenced by him - to attend the Mikage Seminar and very possibly getting to know more about the side of Ohtori that cannot be make public?

And, suppose that Akio did not exert influence over the politicians who attended Mikage seminar, then those politicians should remember Mikage Seminar EVEN AFTER Mikage gets erased.   Wouldn't Ohtori Academy's officials get bombarded by Japanese political forces, medias (how does a functional building turn into a long-time ruin just overnight, where is Mikage, etc) as a result?  But that was not shown to happen, thus why I conclude that the politicians have their memories fiddled with by Akio and Anthy, which makes them just as "controlled" as the students of Ohtori.

As for the "why would Akio care what happens outside Ohtori" . . .

Remember the fable in Episode 34?  The prince is the

light of the world



Quoting Ep 34:
Dios:  It's her punishment for stealing a prince from all the women of the world.
Dios:  That which could not be told until now: the Tale of the Rose.

In an ep where Anthy rides the red car with Akio and is pained by the swords of hate, Akio say he's not the one hurting her, it's the world.

Ep 38
Akio:  This room is the summit of Ohtori Academy, and of the world.
skip
Akio: I'll Revolutionize the World.

Ep 39
Anthy: You are he who chose this road, knowing the whole of the world.

HOW could an entity clearly capable of using magic (bewitchement/ partial mind-control) on individuals outside of Ohtori's grounds, who is so associated with the words "the world" (both by his speech and that of others), NOT CARE about what happens outside Ohtori?


The way I understand Akio's character, he has no reason to continue the dueling game in Anthy's absence.  He's not dueling because he wants to revolutionize the world.

With the apple fed Kanae scene, and how she never showed up in the post revolution student clips, I think it's safe to say that Akio has since prepped his replacement Rose Bride; the duels will continue with or without Anthy.

The way I understand it, Akio's origin is Dios.  Dios translates to God - God of all the world, not just God of a country or a school.

And God has control over more than just people's actions: he has control over human destinies AND over nature - over the stars, the moon, even the sun that makes the morning star pale.  Why watch the planetarium projections, if not partly to gain a sense of control over even the heavenly bodies?

Remember the Tokiko ep?  Ohtori's powers can affect even items in Tokiko's house (the hourglass, the specimen case), not shown to be inside the academy.

quote
Tokiko:  The streets around here are bad.
Tokiko:  It must have been difficult, with the roads all slushy.
<skip>
Mamiya:  The snow in this garden doesn't disappear so easily, does it?

Those items/locations were not inside the Academy, I don't think.  The "time" of the objects got fiddled with (slowed, and/or outright flowed backwards) - another sign that Akio want control over more than just human minds, but control over cosmic forces like time, like nature.


Akio already has some control over the outside world - just not to the extend that he can feel satisfied with. The Himemiyas' power is largely just "devil-level bewitchment upon humans + reversal of state" - it can make them powerful in any human society setting , but it pales in comparison with the true might of Dios.  It is my interpretation that Akio wants to "revolutionize the world" by regaining Dio's Godly, all-encompassing power over it - a great power that only a noble soul could ever have the chance to harness.  Knowing himself to be no longer be noble-minded, Akio then search for people with potential for noble-mindedness amongst innocent, less-tainted children (or, in Nemuro's case, a seemingly wooden but really passionate man with the noble intention of saving a dying child and rescuing a sister in distress), thus why the duels took place.

But his universe is the academy, and its students and staff are his subjects.  He has everything he wants, and it's all inside the academy.

If that's the case, he would have content himself with Mikage and those around him pre Utena.  There would be no reason to make contact with child-Utena back when she was just some kid in the outside who had no connection with the academy.  No, he's on a constant prowl around for a noble-potential-ed heart that he can seize and use to regain the Godly, all encompassing power of Dios.  The games will continue; without Anthy, there's Kanae, without Kanae, there's Mrs. Ohtori . . . the game will go on until he is satisfied with the outcome, or unless a powerful enough force (Anthy?  Post-series Utena?) put a stop to him.  Sure, one can argue that the endless game is a kinda damnation on him, but the ones who get hit with the blunt of his selfish actions will be the weak humans he can manipulate like toys - and he can still do it over and over again.  Is he evil and self-damning?  Yes. Weak? Not by my definition.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (08-27-2012 08:36:11 PM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
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#16 | Back to Top08-29-2012 02:57:20 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: The "Why" of Akio

I dunno.  A lot of this seems to represent wild leaps to conclusions based on slim to no evidence.  I don't feel like I have much to add to what I said above.  Everything Akio does in the outside world is part of the much narrower game inside the academy.  If Akio did have a much broader plan, if he were a powerful lord over the whole world, we would see that.  But we don't.  We don't see him chatting with politicians or power brokers.  We don't even see him leave campus except when he's trying to recruit or promote a pawn for the dueling game.  It sure makes for a stark contrast with what we see of Dios, who has much less screen time but who is constantly shown charging forth to battle monsters and visit French restaurants.  I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that Akio controls the outside world when SKU shows us practically no outside world for Akio to control!  There is nowhere to draw evidence from.  You're stepping outside the text entirely, just as happened in the thread about Utena becoming a boy after the show.

But above all, don't take Akio's word for it!  He's the last person you should trust to tell you how powerful he is -- not only because he's a liar, but also because he's self-deluded.  For one thing, he thinks he's an adult.  A major lesson of Akio's character is that having sex, power, and a convertible does not make you an adult.  Maturity is as maturity does.  Akio can put on a show, but in moments of stress he is petulant, aggressive, fearful, reactionary, and above all selfish.  He's a child, and a spoiled one. 

Dios, for better or for worse, was a creature of the world.  Akio is not.  When he tells you that his planetarium is the highest point in the world, you can be sure it's the bravado of a child who doesn't have to face the world.  When he calls himself the Ends of the World, you can be sure it's a deep irony.  And when Anthy says that he chose this road knowing the whole of the world, you can be sure it's a backhanded way of saying that he is his own jailor -- just as she has always been hers.

That's my take.  I have nothing else to add.  Your headcanon, of course, is yours.

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#17 | Back to Top08-29-2012 08:14:14 AM

Lurv
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 05-25-2012
Posts: 520

Re: The "Why" of Akio

I do get the impression that he's not as powerful as he makes himself out to be as well. He compares himself to Lucifer, but Lucifer is not really all-powerful, which is why I think the comparison works as more than a blatant hint that Akio is bad.

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#18 | Back to Top08-29-2012 09:01:19 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
Website

Re: The "Why" of Akio

I mean, it's Akio.  He's good at what he does.  He's obviously capable of leaving campus, it's not like he exits and turns instantly to dust.  So if he needs to make something happen occasionally off-campus, he probably can.

But that doesn't mean he controls the world off-campus like he does in Ohtori.  Especially questionable is how prepared he would be to do so without Anthy.  For example, I always thought Miki's new stepmom looking like Anthy meant 1 of 2 things:

1. She's not real.  Anthy hypnotized Miki's father into acting like he was getting remarried.
2. "In the end, all girls are like the Rose Bride"

Either way, if Akio no longer controls the Rose Bride he can't make things like that happen.

As to Utena's parents' funeral, Akio didn't do much.  He was, arguably, still almost Dios at the time -- we don't know for sure if it was Akio, Dios, himself post-Dios but pre-formally-Akio, or Dios's ghost.  For what we know he did, he had no need to control the outside world, he merely visited it and took Utena to see something.  So what he did do was essentially magic and relied on sympathy for Anthy.

Which brings me to Mikage.  The Black Rose arc is tough, because it's hard to say what Akio did for Mikage and what Mikage had the ability to do for himself.  And with the end wiping out so many of the events...  We do know Mikage's seminar no longer exists.  If Mikage is alive in the outside world, he is no longer a pawn of Akio's.  But, again, Anthy and her magic were the instrument of Mikage's control.  If there's no Anthy, there's no one to pose as a ghost and whisper temptations into anyone's ear.  And there is no reason to think those politicians owe favors to Akio.

So, I don't necessarily think there's a hard boundary of where Akio's influence stops.  However, as satyr said, we're not given enough evidence to make assumptions that it's rampant anywhere but on campus.  We only see a few instances of limited influence, which predominantly rely on Anthy.  So in addition to the fact that, thematically, Akio's playing "I'm king of the castle, and you're the dirty rascal" in a closed space, we have every reason to believe that losing Anthy obliterates any significant influence Akio has in the outside world.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (08-29-2012 09:02:59 AM)


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#19 | Back to Top08-29-2012 04:55:09 PM

gorgeousshutin
Bare Footman
Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: The "Why" of Akio

Wow . . . I waited like 24 hrs and the feedbacks come in droves emot-aaa

Satyreyes, I'm going to clarify what I wrote before.  You don't have to reply to this if you do not want to (you're always welcome to, of course).
Satyreyes wrote:

Your headcanon, of course, is yours.

I myself respect the headcanon of many others on this board . . . so long as they don't blatantly contradict the facts shown in the SKU-canon, and that they fit in with logic.

Everything Akio does in the outside world is part of the much narrower game inside the academy.
<SKIP>
  I don't know how you can come to the conclusion that Akio controls the outside world when SKU shows us practically no outside world for Akio to control!

I guess you just answered your own question of whether there's an outside world shown in SKU for Akio to (potentially or else) control there, Satyreyes. 
As for my take on Akio, it was as I stated previously:

Akio have already exerted magic over people located in the outside world - Miki's Father seeing Anthy as his would be wife while located outside Ohtori, child-Utena seeing Dios and Anthy in a magical setting while in a church building away from Ohtori,
<SKIP>
That makes Akio, even post series, sound VERY powerful to me, which is my original point in countering the fangirly view that the post-show, Anthy-less Akio is "weak" somehow; he may not be as strong as he did with Anthy working for him, but compared to the individuals and groups in the "real" world, he stands wayyyy above them with his age-acquired cunning-ness and his clearly supernatural, superhuman powers.

Satyreyes wrote
We don't see him chatting with politicians or power brokers.

Instead, we are told of Anthy/Mamiya’s pawn Mikage chatting with politicians or power brokers right inside Ohtori; Anthy/Mamiya, who was then a pawn of Akio.

We don't even see him leave campus except when he's trying to recruit or promote a pawn for the dueling game.

So you understand that Akio can locate potential pawns from people who are not-inside Ohtori, and then draw them in with his abilities.  For Akio to be able to locate and ensnare, say, a seemingly irrelevant child like Utena, means that either:

a)    Akio do a number of active searches in the outside world for potential pawns (eventually chancing upon Utena), and thus “gets around” and is in touch with the world 
b)    Akio has control over  “eyes-and-ears” in the outside who locate potential pawns for him (whom eventually told him of Utena), and thus gets relevant info from them about the world.  Such “eyes-and-ears” will be very resourceful, well-connected people to be able to find people with the kinda duelists qualifications that Akio want.

Neither possibility makes a resourceful entity like Akio a shut-in with little impact in the world – he sees the people outside Ohtori, and has his pick from them to serve his purpose.  That sounds powerful to me (miles could vary depending on what people want out of SKU’s story, of course).

Like, Akio may not choose to (but he can if he wants to), say, leave Ohtori to run for election as Japan’s next Prime Minister, but he can ensnare people important to the PM – or maybe the PM himself – into Ohtori if he so desires, if he believes doing so will serve his purpose. 

And politicians had been shown to be connected to Ohtori, which I’ll get to in my reply to rhyaniwyn.

Lurv wrote:
I do get the impression that he's not as powerful as he makes himself out to be as well.

Hey Lurv!  While that may or may not be the case, Akio being even 1/2 as powerful as he “makes himself out to be” will still make him more powerful than any non-Anthy character in the SKU-verse; none of the others were shown to be able to appear in various guises (child/Dios, Adult Akio), or make time flow backwards even outside Ohtori, except Anthy, his biggest (and likely, only) threat post revolution.

Hi rhyaniwyn!

rhyaniwyn wrote;
So if he needs to make something happen occasionally off-campus, he probably can.

Which, considering his supernatural powers, his manipulative cunningness, and his place in the "real world" as the heir of the presumably wealthy Ohtori clan, gives him a lot of potential power over almost anyone he is to contact in the real world - and we KNOW he HAD actively roamed the outside world to bewitch people who had no previous connections to Ohtori, like child-Utena, which he then bring into his game inside Ohtori.

But that doesn't mean he controls the world off-campus like he does in Ohtori.

Which brings us to the question - how does Akio control the people in Ohtori, exactly?
The "magical" Castle and the Arena are used to awe the Student Council into following his letters . . . but was magic all that he used to control people?
Akio has been shown as an expect user of the "Pawn Chain Technique" when it comes to controlling people, SC or otherwise.  The Pawn Chain works as follows:

Akio =HasControlOver= A =HasControlOver= B =HasControlOver= C . . . . etc

eg: 
Akio =HasControlOver= Mrs. Ohtori =HasControlOver= Mr. Ohtori =HasControlOver= Entire School

Akio =HasControlOver= Shiori (who “conveniently” returns right in time to seize Juri's sword) =HasControlOver= Juri (forced to surrender sword) =HasControlOver= Utena (being made to duel thus have her heart sword tested/strengthened for Akio’s purpose)

Akio =HasControlOver= Kozue =HasControlOver= Miki =HasControlOver= Utena (being made to duel thus have her heart sword tested/strengthened for Akio’s purpose))

Akio =HasControlOver= Anthy  =HasControlOver= Mikage, plus a whole bunch of other ppl doing a number of things to serve his purpose.

Considering how Akio was shown to have
a)    Brains
b)    Looks (more than one look counting the Dios guise)
c)    Magic enough to alter surroundings
while outside Ohtori, how difficult will it be for him to set up similar Pawn Chains in the outside if he wants to?

I know some will again argue the "why would he want to" angle.  But if Akio's duelist list include both irrelevant people on the outside (like child Utena, eventually enrolled in Ohtori), and ex-students he wants back into the game (like Shiori and Ruka, both of whom returning to Ohtori at the exact right moments to serve his purpose), then having Pawn Chains in the "outside world" seem like a must for Akio . . .  unless he could just magically teleport people from the outside world into the school (while fiddling with their minds and making them think they transferred there), then he’s all the more powerfully magically.

1. She's not real.  Anthy hypnotized Miki's father into acting like he was getting remarried.
2. "In the end, all girls are like the Rose Bride"

#1 proves that Anthy can work magic on Miki’s father while outside Ohtori, leading me to believe that Akio, who can show up as Dios outside, can likely do the same
#2 . . . so why is Miki’s “stepmom” (really a woman, not a girl) shown as the only one, especially there is no sign that Miki even considered the possibility that his stepmom, who threatens his family’s unity just by being, would be anything like his shining thing Anthy.

Either way, if Akio no longer controls the Rose Bride he can't make things like that happen.

But just because Akio uses Anthy as pawn, and that Anthy uses magic on her pawns, does not mean that un-aging Akio cannot use magic without Anthy by his side.  It’s not like he needs Anthy to make time flow backwards (both in and outside Ohtori) in the Nemuro Era, and he still can appear in other guises (like Dios) on his own.

As to Utena's parents' funeral, Akio didn't do much.  He was, arguably, still almost Dios at the time -- we don't know for sure if it was Akio, Dios, himself post-Dios but pre-formally-Akio, or Dios's ghost.

But the “Modern Dios Ghost” was revealed in ep 39 to have been Akio himself all along (thus why he taunted Utena via carousel horse); chronologically, Utena met Dios WAY after Nemuro Era, so the Dios child Utena see is really Akio.  Under Dios guise, Akio was the one to have “spirited away” Utena such that the adults cannot find her (otherwise why would no one look in the church buiding), prepared the coffin (likely magical) for Utena; and appeared as Dios; Anthy’s role as the sword-pierced apparition seem like an accomplice at most.

Think of an Indian man flute-playing a cobra to dance for the crowd: the man is the real "charmer", not the puppeted cobra.

For what we know he did, he had no need to control the outside world, he merely visited it and took Utena to see something.  So what he did do was essentially magic and relied on sympathy for Anthy.

He would need to have some control over the outside world to lead Utena to enrol into Ohtori, and to get Shiori and Ruka to return right when he needs them in the duels.

because it's hard to say what Akio did for Mikage and what Mikage had the ability to do for himself.  And with the end wiping out so many of the events...

For no politicians/media (outside people) to show up and question the vanishing of Mikage Seminar means that Akio and Anthy had either tempered with their memories or shut them up with their powers – more hints (if not definite proofs) that Akio could have means to control people on the outside.   And what I said before; why would Akio and Anthy allow outside politician into Ohtori’s Nemuro Hall if that is not part of their plans?  Mikage is completely under Anthy’s control from end of Nemuro Era up to his graduation, and Anthy is largely under Akio’s control at the time.

But, again, Anthy and her magic were the instrument of Mikage's control.  If there's no Anthy, there's no one to pose as a ghost and whisper temptations into anyone's ear.  And there is no reason to think those politicians owe favors to Akio.

If there’s no Anthy, Akio, who can appear in various guises, can act that role himself (remember the Dios ghost that entrapped Utena?).  The “siblings” are shown as supernatural-beings of a similar kind.  If Anthy can display a certain kind of magical power, it's reasonable to believe that Akio can too.  Do you think a woman of wealth, power and ageless beauty (see her flawless lower profile and body) like Mrs. Ohtori would give the “only prince” title to just any young social-climbing stud?

So, I don't necessarily think there's a hard boundary of where Akio's influence stops.  However, as satyr said, we're not given enough evidence to make assumptions that it's rampant anywhere but on campus.
<SKIPS>
thematically, Akio's playing "I'm king of the castle, and you're the dirty rascal" in a closed space,

Am I the only one to notice how SKU purposely showed Utena’s deflowering by Akio to have happened OUTSIDE OHTORI?  What does THAT say thematically?

The roads the Akio Car roams are shown to have lead to places like a carnival fair place and a hotel (at which Akio and Utena had sex) - places outside Ohtori, which leads me to believe that much (if not all) of the roads are part of the outside-of-Ohtori world too.

These are also the roads upon which Akio did his seemingly physics-defying acrobatic feats, and where the kids see whatever magical ends of the world Akio shows them.

Anthy was not shown to be present then.

To me, this again establishes that Akio can work considerable magic outside Ohtori even without Anthy beside him.

This is likely the last post I’m writing on this topic, as whatever else I say in future posts will likely get too repetitive.   We’re all free to interpret SKU however we want; but for me, I’m only inclined to believe in fact-based interpretations – not what I WANT to have been the canon, but what the canon is showing me with its plot facts and its visuals.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
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#20 | Back to Top08-29-2012 11:28:12 PM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: The "Why" of Akio

Sorry for the double post but I just noticed this:

satyreyes wrote:
You're stepping outside the text entirely, just as happened in the thread about Utena becoming a boy after the show.

Satyreyes . . .  while I did say you did not have to reply again, I feel like I need to clarify things here.  If you reread the thread, word for word, you'll see that I have cited actual dialogues and scenes to back up all my points, instead of going something like "his wouldn't be much of a revolution for me if such and such happened that way; I'll just firmly insist that it had happened THIS way instead so the story can be meaningful to me."

Again, when I say Akio has an amount of control in the outside world, I mean him having the power to drag people unrelated to Ohtori from the outside world into Ohtori for his purpose, by way of manipulation and magic  - THAT already makes him sound very powerful to me.  Suppose there is an entity in real life who can pick people off any location, effortlessly drag them into his den for him to use as he please, all without repercussions and is unstoppable, wouldn't EVERY HUMAN BEING - power players or otherwise - fear him at the very least?  That, and he can control time and space at whatever location he's in, along with having variable forms/disguises too . . .  Although of course one can say something like "Akio will never be the president of the United States, at most he'd just be the guy controlling things from behind the scenes" then in that case I suppose he is "weak" by that kinda standard.

But above all, don't take Akio's word for it!  He's the last person you should trust to tell you how powerful he is -- not only because he's a liar, but also because he's self-deluded.

Whatever Akio is, he is not stupid; and he knows that neither is Anthy.  I cannot imagine him saying things in front of Anthy that he should know Anthy will know are cheap, blatantly lies.  It would be counter productive to his controlling Anthy, especially at a critical moment like the final duel.

And when Anthy says that he chose this road knowing the whole of the world, you can be sure it's a backhanded way of saying that he is his own jailor -- just as she has always been hers.

And so backhandedly jabbing against Akio was Anthy's speech, that she then chose him over the friendship offering Utena (whom she cared for, and had begged to make leave for the girl's own sake), surrendered Utena's sword for him to use abusively as her brother pleases, and surrendered her self to the Swords of Hate's stabbing for his sake . . . that just does not make sense to me.  Sorry.


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
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#21 | Back to Top08-30-2012 08:57:03 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: The "Why" of Akio

@gorgeousshutin

I disagree on two fundamental points:

Your assumption is that Akio can do magic.  He cannot.  Any ability he had to do so he lost along with his Dios self.  Anthy, based on what we see, can.  I can't name a single thing Akio did that was attributed to him without any possibility of Anthy's participation in it.  This is why Anthy's defection is a Big Deal for Akio -- on or off campus.  He is a skilled manipulator as well, but frequently relies on apparent magic in order to exploit others' weaknesses.  Therefore he's taken a critical hit, although obviously anything he could do on his own he can still do -- if he wants, which is another subject altogether (he probably doesn't want).

The second is that Akio has invested equal or more attention into the outside world.  As satyr said, Akio simply wouldn't be Akio if he thought and acted globally.  He's self-centered to the point of only caring about his immediate surroundings.  So, while I agree Akio can & has gone outside and can & has occasionally pulled some strings there, he's just not a major player.  I just frankly don't see getting students to attend what is obviously an exclusive private school as requiring too much power.

One of the things about Akio in Ohtori is that he's a big fish in a small pond.  Outside he's a small fish in a big ocean.  I agree with some of your points, but I don't ascribe the same level of import to Akio or his abilities outside / sans Anthy.

#2 . . . so why is Miki’s “stepmom” (really a woman, not a girl) shown as the only one, especially there is no sign that Miki even considered the possibility that his stepmom, who threatens his family’s unity just by being, would be anything like his shining thing Anthy.

I can only repeat, "In the end, all girls are like the Rose Bride".  One of the most important things Anthy ever says.  It's character-defining, thematically essential, and weighted with myriad possible interpretations.  I don't have the words to explain why it strikes me as important to that scene, unfortunately.

Last edited by rhyaniwyn (08-30-2012 09:02:26 AM)


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#22 | Back to Top08-30-2012 10:49:22 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Re: The "Why" of Akio

EDITED to add in a few more things.

rhyaniwyn wrote

Your assumption is that Akio can do magic. He cannot.  Any ability he had to do so he lost along with his Dios self.

Rhyaniwyn, with due respect, when you make this statement, do you have solid evidence /proof from the series to support it?  Or is that a personal opinion/wish without factual events/scenes/dialogues from the series to back it up?

I, from my POV, see a a lot of proofs and evidences contrary to your statement.

Anthy did not show up at all in the PAST ARC that is the Nemuro Memorial Hall chapter (the Indian mamiya scenes were replaced with the real mamiya scenes when Mikage's "real" memories resurfaced in his graduation duel, thus showing that Anthy was likely not there in that past).  Akio did showed up, was mentioned by the 100 boys as you-know-who, all the while time reversed on various objects outside of Ohtori's physical boundaries (the roads, Tokikio's home).  It would be reasonable to conclude that it is Akio who did the magic - just like how, when Akio kiss Mrs. Ohtori's shin, we knew it was prelude to sex even without penetration shown.

Plus what I wrote before:

the “Modern Dios Ghost” was revealed in ep 39 to have been Akio himself all along (thus why he taunted Utena via carousel horse); chronologically, Utena met Dios WAY after Nemuro Era, so the Dios child Utena see is really Akio.  Under Dios guise, Akio was the one to have “spirited away” Utena such that the adults cannot find her (otherwise why would no one look in the church buiding), prepared the coffin (likely magical) for Utena; and appeared as Dios; Anthy’s role as the sword-pierced apparition seem like an accomplice at most.

Think of an Indian man flute-playing a cobra to dance for the crowd: the man is the real "charmer", not the puppeted cobra.

Plus what I wrote about the multiple surreal Akio-car/show Ends of the World scenes that takes place on roads located outside Ohtori - if those roads are inside, they will be as "magical" as the Castle, and characters will comment on them like they did the Castle.  Instead, Utena travelled upon those roads to outside locations like the fairground and the hotel thinking its normal, nor did the SC members comments on "highway roads inside the school WTF", leading me to believe that Akio on his own can work magic even while driving on external highways, and contort the surroundings as he pleases.  If Be Papas want to say Anthy was responsible for the magic there, they would have shown her present in those "show Ends of the Worlds" and those "leading Utena to deflowerment/emo submission" scenes, but Anthy was clearly not present then.

plus what you yourself said on this issue:

So what he did do was essentially magic and relied on sympathy for Anthy.
<skip>
So, I don't necessarily think there's a hard boundary of where Akio's influence stops

In the above sentences, you wording seems to me to indicate that you too believed that Akio can work magic on his own  (even though sympathy for Anthy is key to UTena submitting to his trap, but that is irrelevant to the spirited away thing that blocks out adults but allow Sai and Touga in, and the irrationally present coffin (Akio/Dio is unlikely to have bought one and carry it there himself) )

You wrote:

The second is that Akio has invested equal or more attention into the outside world.

I never said Akio "has invested equal or more attention into the outside world", but that he invested ENOUGH out of necessity's sake to draw people from outside of Ohtori into Ohtori (pre-enroled Utena, Shiori, Ruka), and that for him to be able to do that to just anyone is a fear-worthy,powerful thing in itself.  Unless he was sending magical Anthy out to drag them screaming back to Ohtori every damned time, having Pawn Chains (see my previous post) leading to the outside seem like a logical take on how Akio accomplish  the "drawing outsiders in whenever he wants" bit.

EDITED TO ADD:

You wrote:
So, while I agree Akio can & has gone outside and can & has occasionally pulled some strings there, he's just not a major player.  I just frankly don't see getting students to attend what is obviously an exclusive private school as requiring too much power.

Exclusive private schooling COST MONEY.  Getting Shiori and Ruka in (and out, in Ruka's case) AT THE EXACT right moments to serve him seem to mean that Akio can influence
a) the kids' parents/legal guardian(s)
b) (likely also) the faculty from the  kids' outside school to advice the parents into doing so at the right time.
c) (maybe) people in the parents' social circles/relations recommending Ohtori at the right time

That would logically take some complicated Pawn Chain workings.  Similar things for Utena's case.


There is STILL the fact that Anthy's pawn Mikage is dallying with politicians right in Nemuro Memorial Hall INSIDE Ohtori; Akio, by his Acting Chairman role alone, needs to approve of that to allow the Seminar to occur inside Ohtori Academy.  Why would AkIo let Mikage draw outside power players INTO Ohtori, if such a potentially risky act does not serve him?  I don't think anyone has used FACTS from the show to answer this question of mine as of yet?  Will the ACTING CHAIRMAN just HIDE when the elite politician come into Ohtori, not even being present to greet the important guests entering the premise (among doing other interactions with them) as is likely to be part of his job function?  Or will Akio just go "Hi, bye, Mr. PM; you may notice strange things at Nemuro Hall and all around Ohtori Mr. PM, but please no talking about it to outsiders once you leave, pretty please?" emot-rolleyes To say that Akio has no relations with the outside politicians coming into Ohtori would be just as illogical like saying Akio never have sexual relations with Mrs. Ohtori/Kozue/Touga cause no penetration is visually shown (I know I'm repeating comparisons but this is like the closest example that come to my mind).

If you can give specific scenes/dialogues/visuals to support your statement that Akio cannot do magic without Anthy by his side, then I will accept it.  But as it is . . . I'm seeing too much hard evidences AND soft hints leading one to believe the opposite is true.

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (08-30-2012 04:36:12 PM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
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#23 | Back to Top09-03-2012 06:16:01 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
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Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: The "Why" of Akio

I don't know that it's important that there was a Dios, so long as Akio knows he used to be Dios. The fall seems more important to me than the actual height from which he fell. Even if Akio's power is all illusion and allusion, though, he's still pretty impressive, and he wields it well.


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#24 | Back to Top09-03-2012 06:48:56 AM

gorgeousshutin
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Registered: 04-11-2012
Posts: 1312
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Re: The "Why" of Akio

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:
Even if Akio's power is all illusion and allusion, though, he's still pretty impressive, and he wields it well.

WORD!  Finally, someone else on this thread is giving a logical take on widely-hated Akio's power level.  Just because we all like Utena's character and heroism doesn't mean we should just dismiss her adversary's very apparent might via baseless, unproven personal wishes!  SKU is NOT a brainless wish-fulfillment show the likes of . . . I'd rather not name names here, since those kinda shows got rabid fans all over.  Anyway, SKU is an unyielding look at a bunch of teenagers' varying reactions (some right, many wrong) against seemingly hopeless situations in life - through shoujo magic lens ala its genre - and the one who generates these hopeless situations is a force to be reckoned with both pre and post "Revolution".   Anthy is a semi-deity above the power-levels of regular humans, thus why she is shown as the only one who gets to walk out by her own terms.  Everyone else, on both sides of Ohtori's boundaries, still is at risk from Akio's might and fancy just like before "revolution" (though they no longer need to fear Anthy as his powerful accomplice).

Last edited by gorgeousshutin (09-03-2012 07:20:16 AM)


(PSOH/SKU) Revolutionary Human Leon (Updated to Part 3 as of Sep 26, 2017) / (SKU/MPD) Seinen Kakumei Utena (Updated to Part 43 as of Sep 08, 2017) / (NGE) The End of Hedgehog_s Dilemma (Updated to Part II Chapter 6 as of May 17, 2016) / (BananaFish) Medusa (Updated to Chapter 3 as of Mar 1, 2016)
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#25 | Back to Top09-03-2012 10:55:38 AM

Atropos
Atropos Turretslayer
From: Hampden College
Registered: 10-22-2011
Posts: 906

Re: The "Why" of Akio

(Pretty sure this is related.)
The consensus here seems to be that Akio was the prince in Utena's episode 34 flashback. I disagree, and here's why:
- The prince doesn't look like Akio. It's argued that he changed his appearance to appeal to the younger Utena, but then why would he go back to his adult appearance later, instead of adopting the one that would hold more influence over his champion?
- The prince is never identified as Dios. It looks like him, but he discusses the Tale of the Rose as if he has no relation to it. The outfit is the same, but after all, isn't that just the uniform of princes in the same way the Rose Bride gown is the uniform of princesses? In the movie, where Dios never existed, the spirit of the prince still takes on this form.
It seems like it can be argued either way. Akio says he was, but it would benefit him to lie, wouldn't it?

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