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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top11-13-2006 01:25:31 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Touga's Soul Swords as well as his 3rd duel

A friend of mine asked why it is that touga has a Katana pulled out from his body by Keiko but a Longsword is pulled out from him by Saionji, if naything these roles should have been reversed... though it's strange to mention he's the only character with a differect looking soul sword then his first (save Nanami but I'll give my reasons for that soon enough). As well as the event's of his third duel. I dislike how people discredit... yes it has Utena chopping cars in half and Touga and Saionji suiting up to runover Utena but... think of what this represents. The cars show that Touga has an expression of power in the dueling arena, that like Akio he has the ability to control what goes in and around the dueling arena.  Touga knew that the cars would be destroyed, he knew that Utena would destroy them, that is why they are such flimsy illusions. It's hard to say if he had actually planned to win the duel on the.. uh... motorcycle. Though the details of that are... sketchy...

Oh right the thing about Nanami, I believe Touga did not want to believe that his sister would do such a backstabbing thing as using two weapons. Therefore only one blade was pulled from her. What Mitsuru weilded was her true soul sword. Two blades... though once again it could be a symbol of changing souls.

Last edited by Xu Yuan (11-13-2006 03:17:53 PM)


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

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#2 | Back to Top11-13-2006 03:02:23 PM

Dallbun
Tour Guide to Crawling Chaos
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 689

Re: Touga's Soul Swords as well as his 3rd duel

Xu Yuan wrote:

A friend of mine asked why it is that touga has a Katana pulled out from his body by Keiko but a Longsword is pulled out from him by Saionji, if naything these roles should have been reversed... though it's strange to mention he's the only character with a differect looking soul sword then his first (save Nanami but I'll give my reasons for that soon enough).

I'm not sure why you think the longsword and katana should have been in the opposite order. It makes perfect sense to me that Touga's sword should move towards a more European, fairy-tale "Prince"ly ideal as his motives become more altruistic.

As well as the event's of his third duel. I dislike how people discredit... yes it has Utena chopping cars in half and Touga and Saionji suiting up to runover Utena but... think of what this represents. The cars show that Touga has an expression of power in the dueling arena, that like Akio he has the ability to control what goes in and around the dueling arena.  Touga knew that the cars would be destroyed, he knew that Utena would destroy them, that is why they are such flimsy illusions.

Yeah, in both his second and third duels, Touga shows that he really knows how to make with the magic, so to speak. He's definitely the duelist with the deepest understanding of what can be done in the dueling arena. I'm not sure there's any evidence that Touga would have been able to direct the cars himself, though, if Akio hadn't been backing him. And is there any evidence that he was holding back on the power of the cars so as not to hurt Utena? If Touga's the one directly initiating the car attacks, why would he do it at all if he knew it wasn't going to do any good?

It's hard to say if he had actually planned to win the duel on the.. uh... motorcycle. Though the details of that are... sketchy...

The motorcycle attack is a little bit silly, yes, but are you suggesting that Touga wasn't actually trying to win that duel? emot-confused

Oh right the thing about Nanami, I believe Touga did not want to believe that her brother would do such a backstabbing thing as using two weapons. Therefore only one blade was pulled from her. What Mitsuru weilded was her true soul sword. Two blades... though once again it could be a symbol of changing souls.

I'm not sure I follow your reasoning on Florentine-style fighting being somehow equated with dishonesty or backstabbing... and I don't see why Touga would be concerned with what Nanami thought of him at that point, anyway. I've wondered about the loss of the second weapon myself, but maybe you're right, and it is an expression of Nanami's focus and growing self-awareness, relative to earlier in the series - her soul is no longer as "fractured"?

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#3 | Back to Top11-13-2006 03:30:37 PM

Xu Yuan
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 189

Re: Touga's Soul Swords as well as his 3rd duel

Ahem... that was a typo, sorry about that. it should have been "his sister" meaning that perhaps he did not want to believe his sister would try something dirty handed as fighting with two weapons. Just because of what they mean to him. If she Had truly been mimicking her brother's moves, she would do that with one sword and not two, since the second dagger represented her twisted jealousy.

  The reason for this is... or the reason I believe... Keiko pulls out what she thinks is "The noblest sword in all the world" Wouldn't that have been a more fitting "Princely Sword"? though if it deals nothing with  the puller's response, then it is a symbol of their souls changing,  The fractured soul part makes a lot of sense, she had a goal in mind rather then to sit in the shadow's trying to keep her brother all to herself.

The only reason I could think of for him to make a move that wouldn't work, is as a feint (sp?) After destroying the cars he would strike with the motorcycle, while... somehow... taking off her rose and winning the duel. It was a good plan, but quite flawed.


Please check out the MTG Utena Set Progress we have made at http://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?id=o … 103070805#

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#4 | Back to Top11-13-2006 04:59:39 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Touga's Soul Swords as well as his 3rd duel

I don't think the soul swords respond to the thoughts and ideas of the people who pull the swords, since the symbolism there would be the wielder actively changing a person's identity through their own misconceptions. I saw Nanami's weapons as her curved sabre and a matching gauche sword: a sword usually paired with a rapier to parry blows from daggers and other weapons. It also had its more underhanded uses, luring the enemy nearer for a blow from the concealed blade.  It also shows that she was much more insecure about her skills than any other Duelist, using a sword made primarily for defense. When she changed, she grew much more secure and confident in herself, and wanted to prove that she didn't need that protection and support any more. (I like the fractured soul theory as well, though.)

I saw Touga's sword changing from katana to longsword/rapier as a slowly-evolving maturity of his more princely qualities: the sword appearance that they are apparently striving for is Dios', after all.


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#5 | Back to Top11-13-2006 07:00:05 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Touga's Soul Swords as well as his 3rd duel

I'm pretty much with everyone else that the longsword is representative of Touga's effort to become more princely. It's also a more practical duelling weapon. Longswords were more meant for sparring while katanas were never intended for blade-on-blade contact. They're a strictly slicing-things-off type of weapon, a properly made katana would be seriously damaged by striking another blade.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#6 | Back to Top11-14-2006 01:44:49 AM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Touga's Soul Swords as well as his 3rd duel

ShatteredMirror wrote:

They're a strictly slicing-things-off type of weapon, a properly made katana would be seriously damaged by striking another blade.

Now, that's not true. As I've pointed out elsewhere, you can't avoid blade-contact in fight, where both participants have swords. Katana is just as sturdy as a longsword, though it required quite a bit more work to make that way, back in the days of feudal Japan, when the swordsmiths still had to use Japanese iron, which is among the most low-quality weapon-metals in the world - the Europeans had it easier with their higher quality ore. In any case, either with katana or longsword, you never let the blades lock, in real life. That chips both blades and hurts both fighers equally. But if you have a sword you can't parry with, you can just as well be dead. Dodging without parry is a difficult thing, indeed.

Also, incidentally, the samurai of feudal Japan duelled constantly. The older Japanese mass-battles were essentially a huge number of duels taking place at the same time, with everybody introducing themselves to their enemies before killing them and having an untouchable servant follow them with a basket, to collect the heads of the fallen foes. Only when the Mongolians came and shot the first guy, trying to name all his ancestors before striking, full of arrows, the samurai limited their duels to controlled settings.

And yes, I think that the change of Touga's blade does means that his attitude has changed.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#7 | Back to Top11-14-2006 02:36:07 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Touga's Soul Swords as well as his 3rd duel

Perhaps I didn't word things properly. Edge-to-edge contact was what I meant as opposed to strictly blade-on-blade, because yes, you must parry a blow with another sword otherwise you're dead meat, but blows would typically be deflected with the back of the blade.

From what I've read of Japanese duels, they tended to be over quickly, as much a matter of who could get his sword out fastest after the introductions were over. I'll try and dig up my sources if you like, but more than one has stated clearly that katanas were designed to remove heads and limbs.

Touga and Saionji would most likely be using high-quality modern swords, since nobody, no matter how wealthy, would take an antique into battle and modern blades are tougher than the originals anyway. Paul Chen of Cheness Cutlery, (not to be confused with the Paul Chen of Hanwei Forge) states that a sword is "Battle Ready" if it can hold an edge and cut through standard targets, such as tatami omore, and that even a battle-ready blade is not prepared to stand up to edge-to-edge combat. This guy makes probably the toughest swords available in the modern world, and if he says don't use them in edge-to-edge combat, I'm going to take his word for it.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#8 | Back to Top11-14-2006 12:36:04 PM

allegoriest
Delicious Duellist
From: Cloudcuckooland
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 2506
Website

Re: Touga's Soul Swords as well as his 3rd duel

It bothered me the longest time that Touga used a different sword in the show than in the opening credits. I was all YAY when I saw them pull it out of him in the end. emot-dance I also assume it makes him more "princely" Maybe it really was the most noble sword in the world in the end like she said?


...And I'm also fairly certain that Japanese swords are made for slicing. When I was younger they'd teach how to block and defend in all, but we didn't use it much unless we were only practicing and messing around. I'm also very sure they're several times better at it than other swords. Supposedly most battles last seconds. They always told us seven seconds most.


..Yeah, if none of those sentences made sense, I'm half asleep. zzzzz... I don't even remember clicking reply now that I think on it. O__o


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Only a lemming must be concerned with the ends of the world.

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#9 | Back to Top11-14-2006 07:46:11 PM

ZSPACE
Touga Topper
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 57

Re: Touga's Soul Swords as well as his 3rd duel

Maybe its the duelist's true bride that they get their true strength from. Touga was a true prince with Saionji as his bride and Nanami with Tsuwabuki.

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#10 | Back to Top08-11-2011 09:21:53 AM

Louchan
Rose Bride
Registered: 11-08-2006
Posts: 100

Re: Touga's Soul Swords as well as his 3rd duel

Maybe it was a mistake.

*Shot*

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