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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#26 | Back to Top10-16-2010 12:56:31 PM

liberrrty
Miki Molester
From: The land of the white rose
Registered: 08-31-2010
Posts: 39

Re: Utena in Ep. 23 - What the hell, Miss Heroine?

Thread necro because I wasn't sure where to put this and couldn't find it anywhere even though it's probably been discussed before (sorry emot-frown !)

Why on earth does Utena just ignore Saionji's slapping of Anthy in the second episode, agree to throw the duel and let him win her back and then say it to her face?! I know she doesn't want to fight, she only fought the first time because of Wakaba and only agreed to it now because otherwise she'd be expelled and also she doesn't believe that the Rose Bride stuff is real yet however she just saw the guy smack her onto a stone floor. From her point of view he's clearly unstable and violent towards her and she clearly shouldn't be with him. If she let him win the duel, even if as she believed it didnt mean anything in and of itself, it would give him more incentive to believe that Anthy is "his" and go on treating her like that and she knows that Anthy acts like the Rose Bride to the victor and would just take it. I mean fair enough not wanting to be involved anymore but theres probably something else she could've done (like not believe the bull about her being expelled for not fighting, I mean seriously I know hes part of the allmighty student council but you could at least question it for a second) and espcially not done the equivalent of "Oh that guy who just almost beat you senseless two seconds ago? Yeah I'm just going to pander to his delusions and let him win you back so I don't get in trouble. Nice knowing ya!"

Also this bit at the end:

Anthy:  Weren't you going to lose on purpose?
Utena:  It wasn't for you, but for Chuchu.
Utena:  If you and Saionji were together,
Utena:  he'd probably pick on Chuchu, right?

Chuchu?? Serious?? Okay we know you're trying to play it cool but thats just frigging harsh. She's seen him slap her twice, she could at least acknlodge it instead of just shrugging it off. I mean she does'nt even ask if Anthy is okay. I know she doesnt know her and thinks shes weird but still, a little sympathy would be nice.

All in all just very unprincely behavior, it's just really bugged me all this time.


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#27 | Back to Top10-17-2010 09:38:03 AM

HonorableShadow
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From: Ohio
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 471
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Re: Utena in Ep. 23 - What the hell, Miss Heroine?

Chuchu?? Serious?? Okay we know you're trying to play it cool but thats just frigging harsh. She's seen him slap her twice, she could at least acknlodge it instead of just shrugging it off. I mean she does'nt even ask if Anthy is okay. I know she doesnt know her and thinks shes weird but still, a little sympathy would be nice.

Yeah that line always bothered me too.  Last year I was rewatching the series and I went o_O at that line, because it seemed so out of character for Utena to say something like that.  Even if she didn't know Anthy, so what?  She didn't know Shiori either and that didn't stop her from being concerned and even talking to Juri about Shiori.  There's no reason for her to be that cold or nasty to Anthy in the beginning.


Rose tint my world...
Keep me safe from my trouble and pain.

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#28 | Back to Top10-17-2010 01:00:26 PM

BlackBeforeRed
Acknowledged Smart Person
From: The Nightosphere
Registered: 07-09-2010
Posts: 178

Re: Utena in Ep. 23 - What the hell, Miss Heroine?

I thought it was really strange the first few times I saw it as well, and even when explained it still seems to be a stretch of her character, after all Utena is friendly to EVERYONE, but I digress. I do think it was a projection of her growing attachment to Anthy, and also some denial thrown in for good measure, not exactly shocking, but it's still pretty cold, not exactly her style emot-confused

I also think the whole thing with "I'm gonna lose on purpose so I can be normal" even though she just saw Anthy getting bitch slapped by the person who she was planning on losing to, was supposed to show us she's not exactly prince charming, even though she's compassionate towards others, she does things mainly with herself in mind, her sense of right and wrong might be extremely strong, but she's not exactly selfless.

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#29 | Back to Top10-17-2010 03:06:17 PM

liberrrty
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From: The land of the white rose
Registered: 08-31-2010
Posts: 39

Re: Utena in Ep. 23 - What the hell, Miss Heroine?

Hmm.... you make a good point but I think its more the saying it so brazenly to her face at that moment that gets me. I mean okay if she wanted to just be a normal girl and not be involved but she could have just thought I'll lose the duel and not told her, (I know it's still a pretty crappy thing to do but it's slightly better than being so cold upfront just after Anthy got slapped upside the head emot-confused ) Also the smile on the end of that sentence (if I remember correctly) is just darn inappropriate.


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#30 | Back to Top10-17-2010 06:17:49 PM

teyhy
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From: Ecuador
Registered: 04-27-2010
Posts: 245
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Re: Utena in Ep. 23 - What the hell, Miss Heroine?

In my opinion Utena's thought process is a little different than that of a normal person.

In Utena's mind losing the duel against Saionji just means that she won't have to duel anymore. It doesn't mean that Anthy will have to go with Saionji. In Utena's mind Himemiya doesn't have to do anything she doesn't want to. Utena doesn't understand that losing a duel means losing Anthy until she loses a duel against Touga.

Utena's brain works very slowly and with a good dose of denial and idealism in it. It isn't until episode 23 that she actually says: "Ne, Himemiya. You can't quit being the Rose Bride, can you?"

As for what she the whole "I did it for Chuchu" thing sharnii already opened a nice discussion about it.
http://forums.ohtori.nu/viewtopic.php?id=1897

Last edited by teyhy (10-17-2010 06:38:08 PM)


Time is a great teacher, but unfortunately it kills all its pupils - H. Berlioz.
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#31 | Back to Top10-18-2010 01:05:15 AM

Absolute Apocalypse
Saionji Slapper
Registered: 08-24-2010
Posts: 25

Re: Utena in Ep. 23 - What the hell, Miss Heroine?

Utena obviously said that, because for her at that very precise moment in the story, Himemiya is participating in the Rose Games out of her own will. (Anthy even lies to her on the second episode when she tells her that she likes being the Rose Bride™)

While Chuchu is just a brainless beast that follows Anthy anywhere she goes. Its natural that... uhm, it? seems like the victim here.

Remember guys that while Utenasama is well-intentioned and everything, she's not exactly a good thinker. So while most of us would probably think about the possibility that someone or something might be blackmailing/forcing Anthy to participate in the rose games, Utena simply didn't.

Until much later episodes, seriously the last 3 episodes to be exact.


"Challenging the sword of dios with a simple bamboo practice sword?" etc-saiowank

Always do things the saionji way.

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#32 | Back to Top10-23-2010 10:35:28 AM

liberrrty
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From: The land of the white rose
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Posts: 39

Re: Utena in Ep. 23 - What the hell, Miss Heroine?

Thanks for clearing that up! emot-keke I think I understand a lot more now.

This is a bit OT (and I'm sorry again if its been discussed before) but don't you think Utena's naivety/ignorance/her general way of thinking things through is unnatural? Especially in the beginning when you can't put it just down to her choosing to ignore things because the truth is too hard to bear. I mean compared to her as 6 year old she was a lot more world aware and cynical (even taking it to extremes with the attempted suicide), and after growing up without her parents and being someone doesn't fit the societal mold and the difficulties arising from that, you'd have thought she would have retained some of her cynism and probably questioned things more and had less faith in people right? Staying naive and ignorant when suddenly forced to be self sufficient is not a normal defence mechanism as it would be much more harmful than helpful. Not that logic plays a part in these things, but after going through so much as a child wouldn't Utena want to grow up and become an adult (ie more attentive and less deluded) to get away from that and to protect herself?

Maybe seeing Anthy had something to do with it, but then again seeing someone in that much pain should've made her realise that the world isn't so rosy.  Why at that point after literally having her world shattered did she believe that Anthy could be saved? Maybe Akio or Dios made her that way and it had something to do with the memory loss. She forgot the suffering part of 'suffering is eternal' but surely she should have learnt about pain again through her life experiences in those 8 years and her clinging onto the "prince ideal" would have been broken beforehand. But then that begs the question was she being manipulated from the start? Was she being kept deliberately slow witted? How did Utena keep her childlike innocence having the life that she had?

Utena as much as I love her, is the character that confuses me the most emot-confused.


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#33 | Back to Top10-23-2010 06:44:59 PM

BlackBeforeRed
Acknowledged Smart Person
From: The Nightosphere
Registered: 07-09-2010
Posts: 178

Re: Utena in Ep. 23 - What the hell, Miss Heroine?

I think it's a psychological defense mechanism to be honest, despite the fact that she's not exactly the brightest bulb on the chandelier, I agree with you 100% that it's unnatural. While I think the majority of times everything flies right over her head, there are times when she gets it, but she simply plays dumb, or she doesn't know what it is, but she knows something was just implied. I can't exactly decide what it is exactly, but I know during a few episodes, I felt awkward recognition on her behalf. Don't know if that's just me, but I sometimes got that vibe from her. I think she's truly amazing at blocking out the darker aspects of life, to the point where she's convinced herself they don't exist. She walks into situations always expecting the best of people, even when it's quite obvious to those around her it's a bad scene, and they tell her. It's not as if she hasn't been warned, she chooses not to believe it, therefore I don't think it's stupidity that causes this, it's her psychological need for things to be ok, for people to be good, and for the world to be a great place. Once people venture down the avenue of suicidal thoughts, it's often, but not always, a recurrence, people either develop healthy coping mechanisms, unhealthy coping mechanisms, or no coping mechanisms. The latter two often get worse, and thoughts turn to plans and plans turn to attempts, but if the unhealthy coping mechanisms actually cause a person to no longer be suicidal, the issues transfer to other problems, like Utena's prince complex which I actually believe was born out of her need to see only the good. She may have been moved by seeing Anthy, but she was also traumatized and didn't know how to process it, I think she was pushed over the edge and needed to change what had happened in her own mind. It's not unheard of for victims to push traumatizing memories to their subconscious, it's also not unheard of for someone experiencing enough trauma to have a psychotic break, and lets face it, her memory of the prince is downright delusional. But the fact that her delusion was not caused by an illness, such as schizophrenia or bipolar, means she didn't continue to have delusions once she had blocked the trauma, but her delusion was her crutch, the thing that kept everything from falling apart, so she centered her life around it, her preoccupation with nobility and princeliness distracted her from the pain of her parent's death and also held back the memory of chibi!Anthy being stabbed with the swords, which was vital. Now she will do anything to make sure that memory is real, that people really care and all that jazz, it pulled her thinking around to the other side of unhealthy thoughts, to the point where she no longer protects herself from emotional harm, she knows obviously that some people are assholes, but she refuses to believe anything is disturbing or wrong, or that people are really bad beneath their outward appearance, she might have a hot temper, or be resentful of those that have wronged her, but she doesn't hate. She contorts her thinking in ways that would never make sense to anyone but her to ensure that nothing close to her is outside of her envisioned realm of what life is like. None of this is done with conscious knowledge and no one can make her see beyond it because a person cannot be convinced there delusion is illogical because it was not born from logic it was born of need. She most likely wouldn't all of a sudden lose her mind from her delusion being broken but this is what she has subconsciously convinced herself, much in the way a person who is anxous of flying will convince themselves the pilot saying to buckle for minor turbulance means the plane is going to crash and they are about to die. All that would happen is she would have to actually feel and cope and move on, things ohtori people aren't particulary good at anyways. Nonetheless her delusion remains intact until there is no possible way she can contort her thinking to support it any longer. She sees Akio and Anthy doing the nasty and the illusion of the world she created is gone, she tries desperately to pretend as if nothing is wrong by still seeing Akio, something she knew was wrong from the start, and had quite complex feelings about, but the damage is done. Human emotions and self preservation have now kicked in, she wants distance from Anthy because she feels hurt by her, and fears continuing pain, Akio is easier to pretend nothing is wrong with because she feels less loyalty to him, but the relationship has changed, she now knows exactly what he is doing(or at least that he's not as good as she originally thought) and while she encourages him in hopes of escape from her feelings of betrayal from Anthy, she also doesn't give him the full trust he used to have. She feels angry and confused, still attempting to use her familiar avoidance method of coping, but she can't escape from Anthy, so after her outburst and discussion with Juri, she realizes Anthy isn't the angel of light she once thought she was, but she still loved her and it was good enough, even if she did horrible things that Utena herself doesn't even know the full range of, it can be dealt with. This is the first time we see her deal with something this way, she's trying to actually deal with things again. Even when Akio confronts her about all of her hypocrisy she takes it all in, instead of ignoring him she acknowledges her behavior as wrong and doesn't react violently or aggressively as she did with Mikage. The actual delusion of her meeting the prince is not broken until either her balcony confession with Anthy or Akio attempting to take her sword, which I believe is signified in the projector crumbling, she's realizing everything she knew to be true up until this point is a lie and is gaining strength from her new found knowledge.


I could go on about episode 39, but I think it would turn this novel of a post into a Harry Potter sized novel, and I think I've already gotten of track from your question, but I have strong feelings about why she is the way she is, so please forgive my massive ramble emot-biggrin

I was influenced by the fact that I have an extensive amount of experience in regards to the mental health system, and have met people who do things similar to her, perhaps in a less severe way, to deal with similar feelings of post traumatic stress, In case you wanted to know school-eng101

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#34 | Back to Top11-06-2010 03:36:43 PM

liberrrty
Miki Molester
From: The land of the white rose
Registered: 08-31-2010
Posts: 39

Re: Utena in Ep. 23 - What the hell, Miss Heroine?

Argh! Sorry this is kinda late but thanks so much for that! You really cleared things up for me emot-biggrin .


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