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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#976 | Back to Top10-03-2016 09:55:51 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Politics

If 95% of people believed it was true, wouldn't we see a lot less correction of it, to "all lives matter"/"blue lives matter"/"confederate lives matter"? And considerable less, "Yes, but... why focus on that, instead of this important other issue or angle?"

Right or wrong, it seems to me to still be a very contentious element for a lot of people. Just saying "black lives matter," seems feel like a genuine threat against something for many people right now, but those people feeling threatened, those other forms don't bother most of them. "Blue lives" doesn't seem to bother them. They're not responding to that with, "No, really, it's all lives."

This is an interesting case, where a legal firm put up a sign that reads, "stop killing unarmed black men now," and people have come out to insist it's evidence they hate police. There's nothing about police in there, even, explicitly. Nothing anti-police. But, the order to stop killing unarmed black men, is being perceived as a threat.


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#977 | Back to Top10-04-2016 10:33:20 PM

zevrem
Banned
Registered: 03-23-2013
Posts: 387

Re: Politics

It's because of the common fear/hatred of the archetypal thuggish black man (which spans ALL races, at least in the USA), and it's because it's generally better to be safe than sorry. But of course you already knew that.

Last edited by zevrem (10-04-2016 10:37:56 PM)


The real purpose of elections is to make the people hate each other more than they hate their government.

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#978 | Back to Top10-05-2016 08:28:57 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Politics

zevrem wrote:

It's because of the common fear/hatred of the archetypal thuggish black man (which spans ALL races, at least in the USA)

That's really isolating one aspect out of all context to give an incredibly false model of things. And, really, the "archetypal thuggish black man" spans all races?

zevrem wrote:

it's because it's generally better to be safe than sorry.

Within context, what do you mean by this? What would be the "safe" and what would be the "sorry"?

zevrem wrote:

But of course you already knew that.

I know that it's better to be safe then sorry? Or, Valeli does?


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#979 | Back to Top10-05-2016 09:46:11 AM

zevrem
Banned
Registered: 03-23-2013
Posts: 387

Re: Politics

No, the hatred of the archetypal thuggish black man spans all races. That link is pointing to an article about Mexican gangs specifically targeting black people. Black people aren't hated because of "white supremacy," every race on the planet hates black people, including black people themselves. White people if anything tolerate them more than other races do. If you disagree, try promoting black acceptance with the Chinese or the Russians and see how that turns out.

And by "of course you already know that" I mean "you already know why people are nervous about BLM and its stakeholders and you're playing dumb."

Last edited by zevrem (10-05-2016 09:49:07 AM)


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#980 | Back to Top10-05-2016 10:06:12 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Politics

zevrem wrote:

No, the hatred of the archetypal thuggish black man spans all races. That link is pointing to an article about Mexican gangs specifically targeting black people. Black people aren't hated because of "white supremacy," every race on the planet hates black people, including black people themselves. White people if anything tolerate them more than other races do. If you disagree, try promoting black acceptance with the Chinese or the Russians and see how that turns out.

That doesn't follow, though. Nor, does it go any length, at all, to supporting a need for bigotry or a reason to allow it.

zevrem wrote:

And by "of course you already know that" I mean "you already know why people are nervous about BLM and its stakeholders and you're playing dumb."

So you were just calling me a liar and/or stating that you know my own thoughts and awareness more than I do. Glad we cleared that up.

Now, within context, what does your "better safe than sorry," actually mean?


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#981 | Back to Top10-05-2016 10:11:09 AM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: Politics

zevrem wrote:

No, the hatred of the archetypal thuggish black man spans all races. That link is pointing to an article about Mexican gangs specifically targeting black people. Black people aren't hated because of "white supremacy," every race on the planet hates black people, including black people themselves. White people if anything tolerate them more than other races do. If you disagree, try promoting black acceptance with the Chinese or the Russians and see how that turns out.

Citation, please.

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#982 | Back to Top10-05-2016 11:59:57 AM

malna
Caretaker
From: Poland
Registered: 10-03-2011
Posts: 209

Re: Politics

Nonsense. In Poland we are all of firm belief that entire humankind is united around common urge to tie together all Russians' shoelaces. And while we're at it,

zevrem wrote:

White people if anything tolerate them more than other races do. If you disagree, try promoting black acceptance with the Chinese or the Russians and see how that turns out.

what does that imply Russians to be? Purple?


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#983 | Back to Top10-05-2016 12:29:04 PM

zevrem
Banned
Registered: 03-23-2013
Posts: 387

Re: Politics

what does that imply Russians to be? Purple?

Hahaha. I should have said Western European people, the world isn't that easily divided into White/Black/Asian etc. Brexit should have made that more clear to me.

Citation, please.

Racism in Russia

In recent survey, Moscow Protestant Chaplaincy found that over half of Africans in Moscow had been physically attacked in the past. Attacks in Moscow Metro are common, and "monkey" insults are so frequent that students have ceased reporting them.

Posters and toys depicting Barack Obama as a monkey have been sold in Russian stores in 2015, and Member of Duma Irina Rodnina has publicly posted a picture showing Obama with a banana on Twitter.

Nigerians in China


The real purpose of elections is to make the people hate each other more than they hate their government.

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#984 | Back to Top10-05-2016 01:17:57 PM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: Politics

zevrem wrote:

Citation, please.

Racism in Russia

In recent survey, Moscow Protestant Chaplaincy found that over half of Africans in Moscow had been physically attacked in the past. Attacks in Moscow Metro are common, and "monkey" insults are so frequent that students have ceased reporting them.

Posters and toys depicting Barack Obama as a monkey have been sold in Russian stores in 2015, and Member of Duma Irina Rodnina has publicly posted a picture showing Obama with a banana on Twitter.

Nigerians in China

I'm not sure I follow, to be honest. You have merely pointed that racism exists, which was never disputed. That racist attitudes exist outside of the US/Western Europe does not exactly prove "hatred of the archetypal thuggish black man spans all races" and particularly "including black people themselves."
But let us grant you that such an archetype does exist. Is it your contention that based on it one is entitled to discriminate against black people?

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#985 | Back to Top10-05-2016 01:56:38 PM

zevrem
Banned
Registered: 03-23-2013
Posts: 387

Re: Politics

I was answering a post from Decrescent that seemed to express puzzlement as to why BLM is met with hostility and fear. I happened to point out that racism towards blacks is often worse once you move outside the Occident. Even within the US, it's not white youths trying to drive black people out of poor neighborhoods through violence. And I'll give you 3 guesses as to whether whites, blacks, or Asians committed the worst black genocides of the 20th century.

Last edited by zevrem (10-05-2016 02:06:49 PM)


The real purpose of elections is to make the people hate each other more than they hate their government.

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#986 | Back to Top10-05-2016 02:06:55 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Politics

zevrem wrote:

I was answering a post from Decrescent that seemed to express puzzlement as to why BLM is met with hostility and fear. One way was by making the case that racism towards blacks is often worse once you move outside the Occident. Even within the US, it's not white youths trying to drive black people out of poor neighborhoods through violence. And I'll give you 3 guesses as to whether whites, blacks, or Asians committed the worst black genocides of the 20th century.

I'm still wondering how you were applying "better safe, then sorry" to any of this.

Or, why you think that Russia and China are significantly applicable to an American response to an American political movement/protest.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#987 | Back to Top10-05-2016 02:11:54 PM

zevrem
Banned
Registered: 03-23-2013
Posts: 387

Re: Politics

That was a parenthetical remark for the sake of keeping you from going on some irrelevant tangent about white supremacy or whatever.

As for "better safe than sorry" I'd again like to bring up the "litmus test" I brought up before. Would you be willing, at night, to walk through an economically deprived black neighborhood with boarded up windows and drug dealers on sidewalk corners? You dodged it before, but I'd like to remind you that this is a pretty "yes or no" question.

Last edited by zevrem (10-05-2016 02:19:16 PM)


The real purpose of elections is to make the people hate each other more than they hate their government.

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#988 | Back to Top10-05-2016 02:23:10 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Politics

zevrem wrote:

That was a parenthetical remark for the sake of keeping you from going on some irrelevant tangent about white supremacy or whatever. The playbook of you left-wing sympathy salespeople really isn't that big.

Regardless of whether it was a parenthetical or meant to distract me or something like a shiny object, what did you mean by it?

zevrem wrote:

As for "better safe than sorry" I'd again like to bring up the "litmus test" I brought up before. Would you be willing, at night, to walk through an economically deprived black neighborhood with boarded up windows and drug dealers on sidewalk corners? You dodged it before, but I'd like to remind you that this is a pretty "yes or no" question.

I didn't dodge it. I said I'd accept and lots of people accept your inane "challenge" every day, as it was originally framed by you. It's only scary, in its base form to you, as far as I can tell, out of anyone in the thread. It's a personal fear of yours that you keep trying to insist is universal.

Your challenge does not have much to do with BLM, either, as most of the murders by police have neither occurred at night, or while any police was alone, just having a walk, near a bunch of drug dealers, surrounded by boarded up windows or in the defense of anyone doing so. That's why there was no "I can't breathe outside a boarded up housing complex at night because of drug dealers" protest in relation to the police-aided death of a man. But, when/if that happens there is outcry for that.

You didn't like that I accepted. And, since then, you've been reduced to making statements you won't back up and insulting me. Which, again, is against the rules.

Stop insulting posters. Stop actively trying to derail conversation. This is, at least, the second time you have been warned in recent weeks.


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#989 | Back to Top10-05-2016 03:16:24 PM

Nocturnalux
Qualified Duellist
From: Portugal
Registered: 09-10-2007
Posts: 741

Re: Politics

zevrem wrote:

I was answering a post from Decrescent that seemed to express puzzlement as to why BLM is met with hostility and fear. I happened to point out that racism towards blacks is often worse once you move outside the Occident. Even within the US, it's not white youths trying to drive black people out of poor neighborhoods through violence. And I'll give you 3 guesses as to whether whites, blacks, or Asians committed the worst black genocides of the 20th century.

Putting BLM aside, do you think that this archetype you spoke of is valid? If so, how?

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#990 | Back to Top10-05-2016 06:21:13 PM

zevrem
Banned
Registered: 03-23-2013
Posts: 387

Re: Politics

I think we can all agree that I've been a bit emotional and this has caused me to lose sight of what's important to me. And while I, and lots of other people, find the people that BLM represents repugnant, I personally don't care what these people do as long as they stay away from me or anything I'm likely to visit or depend on. They can shoot each other or burn each other's cars all they want as long as I don't have to work with them, drive by them, or otherwise SEE them. I also don't want to have to pay for their bullshit social programs or hear endless rants about how much I have to care about their struggle for handouts acceptance. If you can accept that then I think we're good.

This COULD have worked. This COULD have been about police incompetence and trigger-happiness. But instead it's about why we need to walk on eggshells around society's worst. And when it's stated like that, it becomes clear that it could never have worked.

Last edited by zevrem (10-05-2016 06:28:17 PM)


The real purpose of elections is to make the people hate each other more than they hate their government.

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#991 | Back to Top10-06-2016 06:21:14 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: Politics

zevrem wrote:

I think we can all agree that I've been a bit emotional and this has caused me to lose sight of what's important to me. And while I, and lots of other people, find the people that BLM represents repugnant, I personally don't care what these people do as long as they stay away from me or anything I'm likely to visit or depend on. They can shoot each other or burn each other's cars all they want as long as I don't have to work with them, drive by them, or otherwise SEE them. I also don't want to have to pay for their bullshit social programs or hear endless rants about how much I have to care about their struggle for handouts acceptance. If you can accept that then I think we're good.

This COULD have worked. This COULD have been about police incompetence and trigger-happiness. But instead it's about why we need to walk on eggshells around society's worst. And when it's stated like that, it becomes clear that it could never have worked.

Holy cow, that's a lot of racism packed into one post.  You want "the people that BLM represents," i.e. disadvantaged black people, to stay away from you; you expect them to shoot each other and burn each other's cars; you don't want to have to look at them; you think the struggle of being black in America boils down to looking for handouts.  And not having to be exposed to black people or their problems is "what's important to you."

I wrote to DD yesterday afternoon to defend your behavior in this conversation and argue that you weren't actually talking like a racist.  You've proven me wrong -- and this is not the first, second, third, or fourth time that you've spoken on IRG in a manner that's flagrantly offensive to black people, poor people, and other groups that scare you.  You have been suspended from the forum before; you have also received ample verbal warnings from moderators for a pattern of racist speech and insulting behavior, behavior that fills the forum that I and others love with hate speech.  We've had conversations with you via PM where we try to explain what you're doing wrong.  Yasha in particular has been a saint in trying to get you to understand.  But you're still making posts like this one.  We're done here.  You are banned from IRG with no expiration date.  If you don't like it, feel free to email me or another mod to appeal or talk about it, and we'll be as fair to you as we can be.

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#992 | Back to Top10-14-2016 09:31:26 AM

Valeli
Thorn of Death
Registered: 12-05-2006
Posts: 481
Website

Re: Politics

Would American style democracy be significantly different if professional sports, and effectively-but-not-quite professional college sports, weren't a thing?

I can't help but think about that each time I see the debates (or whatever) advertised as if they're some kind of game match between sides. I think people have developed a real tendency to pick sides.... which probably (certainly) is a thing that goes far deeper than sports. But sports just bring it out so effectively. I feel like we have a lot of people voting for X/Y just because they're fans of team X/Y.... which strikes me as really problematic.

I'm not a huge fan of either of the two candidates running, but I can't fathom how one of them still has well over 40% of the national vote locked up despite.... everything. It's like people are just voting for that person because they're being fans in a "rebuilding" year. Although this accusation cuts both ways, and I think plenty of people would be tempted to vote for the other candidate "just cause" too.

The other argument, I guess, is that there's huge genuine interest in a protest vote. I don't buy it though. I do buy that people are fed up and frustrated (I am too), but comparing this to other elections.... some years ago back in France, for example (2002), the far right/nationalist LePen got to the final round with the support of a large protest vote (as well as some genuine nationalist support that seems to be growing a bit, but that's a separate lengthy post). The point is LePen got hammered in the final. He lost to Chirac by a vote of ~82% to 18%. It wasn't close. At all. The point, I'm sure, being that citizens felt they had made their voices heard by sending him to the final round of the election, and had no vested interest in his actually winning despite not representing (most of) their interests at all.

Maybe I'm rambling a bit. So back to the point, rather than my allegations and aspersions - would democracy be significantly different in anyways if the whole concept of professional sports/teams had never been a thing? Would people actually pay more attention to voting for their own interests then? Voting for your own interests, of course, creates groups of like-minded/interested people. But I think that now we have people who don't even really care about their own interests all that much when they vote, other than their emotional interest in having their team win.

Or am I just an idiot, and Trump actually does represent the interests of a large group very well beyond serving as a voice of protest? Bring back prima nocta 2016?

Last edited by Valeli (10-14-2016 09:40:11 AM)

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#993 | Back to Top10-14-2016 11:57:57 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Politics

The Trump campaign definitely stepped up a game of "how dare you take your support away" when people started to flee after Pussygate. There's a real sense that you bat for your team regardless of your team's plays or policies. Company loyalty and all that. A lot of people do seem to vote a straight party ticket.

It's funny, you see some folks register with a party, and pay the large money, to get access to their plans early, see their rhetoric - and you're not required to vote any one way, still - and this is generally seen as disingenuous or even treasonous. I don't like that they coughed up five hundred bucks or whatever to a party they don't support, but in the name of knowing what they hell they're going to be up to, why not? Somebody should take the hit.

But, it's downright un-American.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#994 | Back to Top10-14-2016 02:57:29 PM

MissMocha
Bettie Page Princess
From: Tallahassee, Fl
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 4632

Re: Politics

Valeli wrote:

It's like people are just voting for that person because they're being fans in a "rebuilding" year.

My mother's wife was planning on voting for Trump last time we spoke.

Yes. You read that right.

She's been a life long republican and voted for Pam Bondi -our state's attorney general who been fighting LGBT equality laws for years. She is a pot smoking lesbian. But, she's also racist and a Christian. I truly, honestly do not understand why one set of values wins out over the other in her mind, and yet. I have no doubt that she will "hold her nose and vote her Party" because that's the set of values she's chosen to align with.


The first time you looked at her curves you were hooked
And the glances you took, took hold of you and demanded that you stay
And sunk in their teeth, bit your heart and released
Such a charge that you need another touch, another taste, another fix

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#995 | Back to Top10-14-2016 05:10:11 PM

Amasis
Juri Jeerer
Registered: 05-23-2016
Posts: 40

Re: Politics

MissMocha wrote:

My mother's wife was planning on voting for Trump last time we spoke.

Yes. You read that right.

She's been a life long republican and voted for Pam Bondi -our state's attorney general who been fighting LGBT equality laws for years. She is a pot smoking lesbian. But, she's also racist and a Christian. I truly, honestly do not understand why one set of values wins out over the other in her mind, and yet. I have no doubt that she will "hold her nose and vote her Party" because that's the set of values she's chosen to align with.

Is she some sort of Libertarian? I once knew a lesbian Libertarian Calvinist on tumblr.

(As for the main topic, I'm abstaining.)

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#996 | Back to Top10-14-2016 06:24:35 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: Politics

There's very much a "My party, right or wrong" attitude on both sides of the fence. And yes, it does generate the people who do straight-party voting. It's really just a different iteration of "My country, right or wrong."

I used to be a Democrat, but I've been Green Party since 2004, since they have a platform that more closely aligns with my personal belief set*. No one from my party is ever going to run in Louisiana (Maybe I need to be the first?), so I tend to vote as close to a straight-Democrat ticket as I can.**

*I need them to not be so anti-GMO, for starters.

**I've had to vote in a lot of elections where there were two or three Republicans and no Democrats or third-parties running. In those cases, I try to vote for the Republican who at least tries to sound vaguely centrist in their platform.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
Knows how to comfort me tonight.

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#997 | Back to Top10-15-2016 08:11:13 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
Website

Re: Politics

Raven Nightshade wrote:

There's very much a "My party, right or wrong" attitude on both sides of the fence. And yes, it does generate the people who do straight-party voting. It's really just a different iteration of "My country, right or wrong."

This is what pretty much all the goodwill Trump ever got from the GOP was about. They knew brand loyalty would stick through a lot of really ridiculous crap, and they've been right.

But then, for my part, I'm the same way. I won't vote third party even if it's somewhat more in line with my values. I actually find Hillary much too hawkish, and being chummy with Wall Street and Saudi Arabia was great when the economy benefited from it, but now is not the best platform to run on. In the end, though, it's a numbers game. I remember very keenly Bush v. Gore, particularly because it was the last election to take place before I could vote--I watched powerlessly as the numbers game betrayed Gore and he lost on a technicality driven by a lot of shady bullshit and poor counting on the part of a Bush owned state. It's influenced my mentality as a voter, so that I vote strategically rather than with my beliefs. I would turn on the Dems in an instant if the Republican nominee represented me better, but I'm hesitant to vote third party at the risk of losing my second choice to my third.

I don't know if Republicans are driven by this mentality, and so loyal to Trump on that, but if it's the case, I'd have grudgingly accepted it on the basis of his politics. That's how democracy works whether I like it or not--but there is a point where a person's moral fiber, or lack thereof, begins to count for more than their politics. That threshold is actually quite high for me, and I'll take a lot of bad behavior on the private front from a politician whose doing their job well. There's a limit, though.

Mocha, that sounds like how a lot of the Latin population in Miami typically votes. They'll go Republican, though as immigrants this typically doesn't benefit them, because it's about religion first. How anyone at all can be voting Trump on their religious belief is beyond me, though. I don't think he even believes God exists, because if he did, he'd have spontaneously caught fire by now. (Anyone remember the movie he endorsed by presence where a clear stand-in for him kills his wife and gets represented by the literal Devil? Because Pepperidge Farm remembers.)


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#998 | Back to Top10-17-2016 07:13:52 PM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: Politics

I'm still surprised, over here in China, how many Economics students seem gaga over Trump still. "He'll be a strong leader." "He knows how to brand."

That we'll all die in a  fiery nuclear war of shame and degradation and weird hairpieces doesn't seem to factor in. He knows how to put his face on things.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#999 | Back to Top10-17-2016 07:47:52 PM

gpink
Eternal Castellan
Registered: 11-21-2009
Posts: 265

Re: Politics

Decrescent Daytripper wrote:

I'm still surprised, over here in China, how many Economics students seem gaga over Trump still. "He'll be a strong leader." "He knows how to brand."

That we'll all die in a  fiery nuclear war of shame and degradation and weird hairpieces doesn't seem to factor in. He knows how to put his face on things.

Not so strange from my point of view. A lot of autocratic regimes thend to create a cult of personality around persons similar to Donald Trump.

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#1000 | Back to Top10-17-2016 08:43:52 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
Website

Re: Politics

Would you say Trump's 'brand' is consistent with the view Chinese people are given of the US on the whole, though?

I feel like if a person were to be completely racist toward the US, their viewpoint distilled into a human form would basically be Trump.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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