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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top06-23-2008 11:49:46 AM

Prince_of_Stars
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Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

I have finished watching the series for a third time, and there is still something I don't get. Well, quite a few things actually, but I this is one of the things that is keeping me up at night. Why is it that Dios couldn't save Anthy, and why did Anthy take him away from the people? I mean, I think I know the reason that Anthy took Dios away. It was because he was killing himself trying to help everyone else, and he didn't want to take care of himself, but was it also because she wanted to hurt him for not rescuing her?


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#2 | Back to Top06-23-2008 12:25:40 PM

brian
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

It probably connects to some kind of earth-goddess myth which I remember reading once but I cannot remember what it was.

Dios was being sucked dry by humanity and Anthy tried to save him. However her motives were not pure because she also wanted to save him for herself. Everything blew up in her face: instead of saving Dios she destroyed him and turned him into Akio, instead of becoming his Princess she became a slave to be toyed with by all kinds of strangers as well as Akio. She could only be saved by someone she believed in and she had destroyed the only thing she believed in. The first manga implies that she somehow gave Dios his power in the first place. It may be that only she could only believe in someone who believed in her. No one had any reason to believe in her nor did she have any reason to believe in herself.

Akio and Anthy were stuck in a Mobius strip unable to find the other side. Utena found the solution by metaphorically jumping off.

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#3 | Back to Top06-23-2008 03:42:11 PM

Imaginary Bad Bug
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

brian wrote:

Akio and Anthy were stuck in a Mobius strip unable to find the other side. Utena found the solution by metaphorically jumping off.

Wow.  Best one line summary I've ever read!

poptartpoptartpoptart for you, brian!


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#4 | Back to Top06-24-2008 01:03:07 AM

OnlyInThisLight
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

Anthy sealed him away because his role as the Prince was destroying him, because in the end, the Prince is only an illusion created by society's demand for a saviour, and so he had to help everyone, and despite the role he had been saddled with, the fact remains that a perfect Prince does not actually exist, and so he could never really fufill that role.  Thus, his constant heroics were talking a toll on him physically and emotionally.

Anthy was his sister, and she loved him for reasons beyond his princeliness.  But it was because she was his sister that she was not able to be his princess, because that's not the way fairy-tales work, and because Anthy felt very un-princesslike things, like jealousy and hate towards the humans who so shamelessy and ungratefully drained her brother of his goodness.

So, they're in the shed, and Anthy is trying to protect him.  Oh wait, she's also a girl, which means she can't be a Prince herself, so she can't actually protect him, either.   Only one thing to do.  Anthy became a witch.  She sealed Dios away, to keep him away from the humans and their hatred, and to keep him to herself.  Or she probably only sealed away his princiless, so that the Prince the humans wanted no longer existed, and they wouldn't bother her brother anymore.

I'm one of the people who think she did this partly by seducing him, and partly through magic.  When Dio's comes to see Utena in her coffin, his collar is undone, which is a fashion-statement used by both Akio and Touga later in the series to represent entwined power and sexuality.  In the flashback, Dios wear's white and Anthy wears a red dress and gold bracelets.  Akio wears a red shirt and gold armbands, and Dio's white hair becomes Akio's light lavender.  Symbolic of Anthy's meddling, perhaps?  And by present time in the series, Anthy now reaps what she has sown, and sex between the two is a emotionless and twisted act used to fill unsightly desires and exert dominance.

Part of what made Dios a Prince was his innocence, and when Anthy seduces him, he looses it (Utena faces a similar challenge in the series) and is thus no longer able to be a Prince.  Anthy leaves him in the shed and goes to tell everyone that she has sealed her brother away, that he is a Prince no longer.  So.  They turn their hate on her, and now that Dios is no longer a prince, he is unable to help her or protect her from the swords.

It was at this moment, when Dios could not protect Anthy, that Anthy became a witch, and he began the long descent into becoming Akio, the fallen adult.  Anthy took his most of his power away, the Prince's power to protect Princesses (and I believe it's this ability to 'protect' that Anthy uses to keep the swords from destroying herself completely) and all sorts of other neato shit.   Dios was innocent and Akio is not, Dios protected where Akio hurts, Dios was needed where Akio needs.  Children become adults and old coffins are exchanged for new ones.

And yes, Dios's innocence was cruel to Anthy.  He let himself keep getting hurt, disregarding how much it pained Anthy to see him do so, so part of Anthy did want to take that innocence away form him, and in the process make him hers.  Protecting Anthy up until the point the swords struck her was a nonissue, because up until then, she didn't need it.  It was only when he truly failed to be a Prince to her, and when she was condemned for her sins (incest taboo, greed, lust, etc, etc) that she became a witch, because she was the one who had to save herself, which wasn't how it was supposed to go.

So, from the beginning of the series, Anthy has the power to save herself, she simply chooses not to do it, not until Utena shows her true compassion and acceptance, despite her sins, and *helps* her (not *saves* her).  Hence why it's Revolutionary Girl and not Princely girl Utena.
Why does Anthy condemn herself?  let herself feel the pain of the swords, and continue protecting her brother?  Guilt.  It's her fault Akio is who he is, and the humans were right, she did a terrible thing, destroying the Prince.  Not to mention the incest. 

Anthy didn't need a Prince to "save' her and disregard all that she had done in the process, saving her simply because she was a princess.  She needed someone who saw her, all of her, her ugliness and sins and general witchiness too, and *forgive* her and accept and love her both for it and because of it, not save her from it.  She can do that herself.

Gah, I sound horrible.   It's late, I'll try and make this less retarded-sounding in the morning.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (07-01-2008 10:55:59 PM)

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#5 | Back to Top06-24-2008 10:14:54 AM

Stormcrow
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

Actually that's not bad at all. My interpretation is a little different, but not much. And the bit with the armbands is particularly interesting, I never noticed that.

Personally, I tend to a more psychological interpretation of events (sorry Ashnod, I know you're sick of hearing this). The whole issue of who has what power is far less interesting to me than the motivations of the characters. Of course, power is often a motivation, but I really don't think that's behind either Akio's or Anthy's actions. Not supernatural power anyway.

Human beings are complex. The question of whether or not Akio or Anthy is human I'll leave untouched. So if we look at the original group, Anthy & Dios, if we look at them as human and not pure archetypes, you can kind of see where Akio might have come from. My take is that he was always there as the dark nature of Dios. As long as Dios suppressed those urges, he could be the prince and protect the women of the world from whatever. But he was still a man, and in doing so he ignored his own needs and desires. Most of those won't just go away if you don't indulge them, and pretending they're not there as Dios probably did just makes them stronger. This could explain why Anthy hated the prince, though she loved Dios. Most of the people that he helped would probably have taken him for granted, not that that would be entirely their fault. If asked if he needed anything, Dios would undoubtedly have demurred, saying that he was fine, thanks. Anthy was probably the only one that saw that his need for support and companionship wasn't being met.

In the meantime, Dios would have been building up resentment against the very people he was helping. It would have seemed more and more that they were just using him, and that they didn't really care about him. It's even more likely that Anthy would become increasingly contemptuous of humanity as a whole for using her brother that way. And so she seduces him.

This could have happened in a variety of ways, and might not even have involved sex, but either way, SHE became the one protecting HIM. The strict interpretation of morality that Dios subscribed to (and Anthy too, most likely) would not permit him to show weakness that way. So, a prince no longer, he drowns himself in the Akio persona. Akio has no morals and doesn't care if he's weak. It's OK for Akio to use his sister as a plaything, and everyone else too. Akio can finally indulge all of those urges that Dios had to suppress and live for himself for a change. Best of all, it's all Anthy's fault. It was her idea in the first place, after all. And so as Akio, Dios is able to avoid any sense of guilt or responsibility.

Of course, nothing is that simple. Akio is a fiction, it's really still Dios. And while he may act differently, his old feelings remain. He still feels guilty about the things he does, and hides the guilt from himself by attempting to prove that he doesn't care about people, about Anthy specifically. It becomes necessary for him to hurt Anthy as much as possible, and to treat her with contempt, to keep his compassion for her under wraps and hold his guilt at bay. It only shows in that one scene in the show, when he angrily tells her not to blame him for what happened.

His last act as Dios was to show Utena Anthy's predicament. I do not think that this happened at the same time as Anthy's original seduction, though some have said so. I think it more likely that the Akio and Dios selves both exist in the same person, and either can express itself at any point. Except that Dios isn't big on the forgiveness, and neither is Anthy. At least at the start of the show. So Dios cannot forgive himself for being Akio, and he feels obligated to remain the villain. Playing the prince would be hypocritical. Of course, this does make his appearance before the child Utena problematic...perhaps the prince Dios is just what she sees with her pure non-judgmental eyes? Perhaps something about Utena inspires him to act nobly, even though he detests himself? Not sure.

Anyway, that's my take in a nutshell. I'm not even sure if I answered the original question.


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#6 | Back to Top06-24-2008 11:01:45 AM

Jellineck
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

Wow. Unbelievably, I never picked up on the similarity between Anthy's "witch dress" and Akio's outfit before. Now that you mention it, they are unbelievably similar. Very good interpretation, Stormcrow. It very much makes me reconsider what I thought of the characters. It makes sense to me that Akio is merely a fantasy of Dios. A dream to suit the surreal environs of Ohtori Academy. After all, Akio is more a mockery of maturity than he is the actuality. He's rich, powerful, and gets what he wants. But he displays no signs of responsibility, and refuses to rise from the coffin that binds him. He's more like a pre-teen's wet dream of the desired future role. The theme of adulthood and coming to age is a persistent one in Utena. Akio is the opposite of Dios in that he represents the other side of immaturity. Where Dios is altruistic to a fault, Akio is self-serving and lives upon the sacrifice of another.

One interesting little thing that I have to bring up is that it's widely stated that Anthy initiated their sexual relationship. I'm not entirely sure of this myself. I wouldn't go so far as to call it rape, but I wonder if Dios instigated the act as part of his transformation into Akio. Whether he took the initiative in order to further punish Anthy - after all, she's only a witch. The entire series revolves around the masculine's sexual domination of the feminine. The power play between Akio and Anthy often manifests itself in a sort of quiet violence: Akio always initiates the act, and occasionally even borders on being physically abusive (yanking her towards him, breaking the tea cup). Anthy never really displays her sexuality. Where the men of the series often assert theirs to manipulate, she plays upon the heart and emotions. When Kozue advances on her in Miki's second duel, she is merely the passive and uncaring recipient. Akio's visions of her always manifest as sort of a voluptuous doll. She is never seen unbuttoning his shirt, or kissing him, or manifesting her own desires in any way. Rather, she is draped across the couch, standing there while he views her, etc. As far as these signs go, she is both the witch and the victim. Akio paints her as the former because as Stormcrow pointed out - it's much easier to rid himself of the guilt. And just to clarify, I don't see Anthy as a blameless damsel in distress. Rather, she comes off as rather asexual (some teasing moments with Utena aside) in the series, and I have to wonder if Dios/Akio was the one to introduce the sexual dynamic in the series. Introducing the roles that they continue to act on throughout the series.


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#7 | Back to Top06-24-2008 12:23:59 PM

OnlyInThisLight
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

emot-aaa  All this interpretative and analytical discussion is making me so happy emot-smile .  How come we don't do it so much no more? :c

So difficult to choose how to approach Utena, from a psychological, philosophical point of view, in terms of symbolism or in terms of 'themes'.  Oh well, bs is what I'm best at, so I'll probably stick with it.

Stormcrow, keep talking man, I love it.

As for Jellineck's question, I kinda see the sex between them to boil down to, at it's core, to be a mockery of the love between a Prince and a Princess.  When you're young, this love is purely romantic and innocent, when you're older, sex comes into play.  Anthy sealed Dios away and helped create Akio, partly by forcing him to cross this border into adulthood, and in return, Akio has become dependant on her, (possibly, as I mentioned, becuase now she has the power to protect) both as a sheild against those nastier sides of adulthood such as responsibility and truth, and in a sexual manner.  The sex is not just a way to dominate Anthy, it's Akio's why of humilating and demoralizing her, reminding her of the sin she started, mocking her love of Dios, of that small and horrible part of her that he thinks wanted to be saved and loved by a Prince.  That power wasn't meant to be hers, that power to protect and to love him in the first place, because she was a girl, and his sister (in Akio's eyes).  So, Akio takes both connotations of the Prince's power from her to degrade and punish her.

Is this what you wanted, you filthy thing?  Well, now you have it.  No complaining, now, witch.  You reap what you sow, my little princess.

And he gets this beautiful illusion of control and domination from her, and the feeling that he controls that power once again, by taking advantage of it (think about when he grabs her when he's angry.  People often touch, hold, or grab physical things in order to establish ownership, as if the item were an extension of their body ***) in the process. He needs for her to feel guilty and responsible for what he has become, so she will stay.

And that's what Akio is all about, just a different kind of illusion.

(Said interpretation based on the idea that it was, in fact, Anthy who iniated sexual contact)

Maybe what truly separates Akio from Dios is intent.  Dios's cruelty and neglect of Anthy can be forgiven, to an extent, because he was young and innocent.  Akio is no longer innocent, yet he chooses to still neglect and even actively hurt Anthy, because he chooses to remain ignorant and irresponsible, to protect himself.  Dios became Akio because his Princliness, and probably just a good deal of his morality, could not properly survive the transition into becoming an adult.  The way in which things went down -Anthy's seduction, her becoming a witch, etc, etc, - left us with a Dios who slowly began to fear and resent the world around him, and his sister for exposing him to it all, and so he protected himself through Anthy, by refusing to take on the more difficult tasks of adulthood himself and piling them onto Anthy, such as responsibility for oneself and those you care about or owe it to.

Like Gio said, an adult in all the ways we mistake what it means to be an adult for, for his easy and well-learned sexuality, his physical body and (this an illusion/ born of manipulation/ lie) his power, but he is still a child inside.

Utena faces a similiar challenge herself, retaining her nobility, morality, idealism, whatever, even after sex.  Which she did.  And then, in the final episodes, facing all the nasty things the world has to offer and the truth behind childish dreams and her own hypocrisy, and becoming what it means to be a mature adult for real, not just in terms of virginity.  Now, when she tries to help Anthy, it is not out of innocence, it is because she chooses to, despite what she knows, as she takes responsibilty for herself and still tries to help someone outside herself in what can now only be truly called 'selfless'.

Akio= Fake adulthood, his challenge against Utena's path to becoming a proper adult was sex.
Anthy= A nasty, but true, side of adulthood, her challenge against Utena's transition was opening her eyes to reality and taking away more than sexual innocence.  (stab stab stab look what can happen when you try to help stab stab not everyone is a nice and innocent princesses stab stab)

For even more fun on this matter, check out the movie.  Touga was a prince, a true Prince (which is why he is dead, because the idea of a Prince will always be fundamentally flawed in itself) and when he was child, what obstacle did he face, that he had to retain his Princiless despite and throughout?  He was molested by his father (at an age similiar to Dios, 'adolescence', that transition between child and adult).  He managed to keep his nobility intact, and became a Prince. 

Well, we all know how well that ended.

Okay, that still made no sense.  I'll shut up now.

***Another example:  Akio posing while touching his car, Touga infuriating Saionji by leaning so casually against his Kendo-room door

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (07-01-2008 10:57:55 PM)

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#8 | Back to Top06-24-2008 12:52:05 PM

Stormcrow
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From: Los Angeles
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

hmm...two things.

First, we don't even know that Dios and Anthy ever HAD sex. As I say, though it's obvious Akio uses her for sex, an actual sex act does not seem necessary to the fall of Dios. Though I think it's likely. But while I would expect Dios to harbor latent attraction for Anthy, I'd say it was Anthy that actually got the ball rolling as it were. Mostly because it seems that of the two of them, Anthy has always been the most decisive, the most willing to make a change in circumstances. I don't think it's a coincidence that she got help before Akio did. Also, it seems to me that as OITL pointed out, Akio's use of Anthy does seem fairly punitive. So even if he had, as Dios, initiated sex between them, I would think it would have been quite different in character from what we see from Akio.

Second, I want to be clear about one thing...and this is a subjective moral point, with which others will almost certainly disagree. But I don't see how Dios actually did wrong by Anthy in any way. If he abused her, or tormented her, or whatever, that would be one thing. But all we seem to be able to hang on him is neglect. How is this blameworthy? If I help one person, and as a result I can't help another, how is that a crime? I know it sucks for the person left out of the loop, I've been there too, but I don't see that as wrong. Even if he was her brother. I don't think it's legit to demand that anyone care for you in precisely the way that you want them to. Nobody gets to expect that.

Now to be sure, Dios was guilty of neglect, but only of himself.


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#9 | Back to Top06-24-2008 01:00:05 PM

Prince_of_Stars
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

The movie actually confused me more. I got the gist of it and a few of the inner ideas about the rest of the Seitokai. I even understood Anthy a little better. Man, I feel so slow, but I thought it'd be best to ask those who could better interpret the symbolism. I, for the most part, understood the symbolism, but it's the deeper meaning that I can barely touch. Thank you for your intepretations. They really do help. emot-wink


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#10 | Back to Top06-24-2008 01:07:30 PM

Jellineck
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

The sex is not just a way to dominate Anthy, it's Akio's why of humilating and demoralizing her, reminding her of the sin she started, mocking her love of Dios, of that small and horrible part of her that he thinks wanted to be saved and loved by a Prince.  That power wasn't meant to be hers, that power to protect and to love him in the first place, because she was a girl, and his sister (in Akio's eyes).  So, Akio takes both connotations of the Prince's power from her to degrade and punish her.

Absolutely agree with that last statement. I just think that there's a possibility Akio introduced sex to the dynamic, rather than Anthy seducing him. Sex being used as a punishment and to assert everything you just stated. I think it would be equally possible of Akio used sexuality as a way to mock and degrade Anthy's more romantic inclinations of him - perhaps he was responsible for turning something innocent into a twisted perversion. I think it would fit in well with the context that sex is used in Utena: as a weapon. Anthy's more platonic relationship with Utena is seen as the more innocent reflection with what she wanted to have with Dios - to be protected and treasured. I think in reality, it's vague enough to be interpreted both ways. But I'd just like to open the consideration that Akio seduced her opposed to vice versa.

Anthy= nasty, but true, side of adulthood, her challenge against Utena's transition was opening her eyes to reality and taking away more than sexual innocence.  (stab stab stab look what can happen when you try to help stab stab not everyone is a nice and innocent princesses stab stab)

I don't see Anthy as an adult. I see her as wiser and more mature than most of the other cast members, but in the end, she's still not strong enough to take the last step into adulthood. Her pessimism and fatalistic view is just a far darker shade of immaturity than Utena's. Utena believes that everything will always turn out for the best. Anthy believes everything will turn out for the worst. Neither are entirely true, for they are the dramatic ends of the spectrum. By opening herself up to allow healing and friendship, Anthy breaks out of her coffin and progresses to the point where she can leave Ohtori.

Is this what you wanted, you filthy thing?  Well, now you have it.  No complaining, now, witch.  You reap what you sow, my little princess.

...I want to read a fanfic with that line.

So even if he had, as Dios, initiated sex between them, I would think it would have been quite different in character from what we see from Akio.

The real problem here is knowing where Dios ends and Akio begins. Was Akio the Mr. Hyde to Dios' Jekyll all along, tempting him to his weakness? Personally, I should have been more clear. I don't believe that the first stage of Dios initiated sex with his sister. But it could be an interesting theory that it was a result from a progression. A long decaying process where Dios turned more and more into a silenced and trapped ghost, made miserable from his imprisonment. It'd an interesting prospect to consider it was the actual act of sex that turned one into the other.

Dios: ...*reaches out and touches Anthy's boob*....Ah crap. *balls drop and POOF! he becomes Akio*

The movie actually confused me more. I got the gist of it and a few of the inner ideas about the rest of the Seitokai. I even understood Anthy a little better. Man, I feel so slow, but I thought it'd be best to ask those who could better interpret the symbolism. I, for the most part, understood the symbolism, but it's the deeper meaning that I can barely touch. Thank you for your intepretations. They really do help.

Sorry if it's immensely confusing. I watched the series about three times before making any sense of it, and I still don't know what to think about half the things that go on. It's kind of like "Lost" in that when you think you've found an answer, you've really just opened the door to a new load of questions. Good luck!

Last edited by Jellineck (06-24-2008 01:09:56 PM)


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#11 | Back to Top06-24-2008 04:56:38 PM

P.D.M.
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

Hi, um hello, noob poster here.

Been checking out the forums for some time now, but now that this thread was made, i can finally get this thing that kept bothering me about Utena off my chest.

OITL, reading your assumption on this, I felt like I've finally found shining thi-, eh, explenation that I was looking for. Still, this made me even more very of something I've been feeling ever since I saw the series finale.

First of all(and I am hoping that I'll get cleared up on the matter because seeing you guys I don't know what to think) for some reason I can't consider Akio as childish. I just don't see him being so immature as everyone else here on the forums says. I don't remember seeing any occasion where he should have taken responsibility for something but didn't. Not regarding the duelling game of course, but nobody in a position like that would take the blame for what goes on in there. Besides, he's living the life! He made a world where everything goes as he wants! I consider that achieving the dream. I mean, you guys would like that too, wouldn't you?

While I'm at it, allow me to dissagree in a few things with Stormcrow. First, the minor issue, than the larger, since it relates to my dillemma in whole.

The minor one would be that I believe to have proof that not only are Anthy and Akio not human, they actually gained (whoa boy)eternity. And showing Anthy to Utena was by far not a deed by Dios.

My point is this. In the episode "Nemuro Memorial Hall" I think, Mikage remembers Tokiko being seduced by Akio. Now we would get to think ergo that the burning of the hall occured between the time that child Dios got Utena into the whole thing and the time Utena came to Ohtori. WRONG!

In episode "Qualifications of a Duellist", when Mikage get's his final mindfuck, his last line is:

How many decades has it been since I saw you last?

Decades! Decades people! It is my assumption that Anthy and Akio change age(and gender) as they see fit, seeing as, again, Tokiko get's seduced by the Akio we all know and love\hate, while six years prior to the events at Ohtori, a child Dios comforts Utena.

Just as a side note, as my bigger concer comes now:

To start, I don't think that Akio is an illusion. It's what Dios has become, curtesy of little sister, and he has sex with her to hurt her for what she has done. See, there they are in that shed, and Dios is critical, with the crowd outside, calling him to fight back whatever menace is terrorising them. I mean hey, that's what princes are for, amirite? Anthy is scared that Dios may die, so she seals away his powers inside him. I wouldn't go so far as to name the method sex(it's unlikely that she could have gotten Dios's you-know-what up and have intercourse with him in such a short period of time, especially being his sister and all), I'd say it is more likely Anthy's innate perk of "unstabability". So she goes out, gets lynched, and put in the coffin. Now I believe that Dios/Akio thinks Anthys act was unnecessary, as he would have been able to win in the end, but instead, he is now left with no power, no means of getting it back by himself, an astral projection sister-somethingoranother that now has all the power he had, and a recorded epic fail of saving his sister(I'd like to point out that IMO the reasons for that were beyond his control, and still IMO it was Anthy's fault). And about this, two things bug me:

1. Because of the above statement, I believe that the powre to revolutionise the world, whichever way you look at it, rightfully belongs to Akio. It was taken from his former self, and it should be given back to him. The method he uses to gain his power back is a whole other story, but in my eyes this fact remains.

2. We can take into consideration that after the shack incident the life of Akio depended on the Anthy-ghost. It's what gives them power to change sex, age and stuff. And the last scene is basically Anthy telling Akio that there is someone better suited to free her and get his power than him(someone who can actually free her)(who the hell takes "not that long" of a time to decide to leave after something like that coffin incident anyway?). She leaves Akio, and this begs the question if this girl is as selfish as I for some reason tend to believe? And if her powers are keeping Akio alive, if she goes away, will he... *gasp*

Help me out here guys! I'm feeling this series is throwing me a curveball and I don't even know if it's a bat that I'm holding!

(Maybe I left something out here, but it's 1:00 am dammit)


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#12 | Back to Top06-24-2008 06:04:35 PM

Aine Silveria
Pumpkin Bride
From: Allegan, MI
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 2098

Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

Yes, let's all fear when Chani tries to make analysis. emot-rolleyes

To P.D.M. -

1) The power to revolutionize the world may belong to Akio, but you have to remember one thing. Akio was effectively auctioning it off to the highest bidder (i.e. the dueling game). It may belong to him, but I wonder about how much he truly cared about it if those were the means he was using to try to get it.

2) This is assuming we believe that Akio is life-dependent on Anthy. Oddly, this is not something I believe to be true. Akio is incredibly dependent on her, yes, but I don't believe so much that their lives are linked. Even so, Anthy isn't that selfish. She has control over her powers, this much is obvious. If she was keeping him alive, I imagine that she would have given his life back to him, which is what she did by leaving him. From here on out, it's up to Akio to live his own life, and grow up.

This is where most of us as forum members call Akio immature and childish. He may have an adult's body, but he is not one mentally. If you look at how he acts, it is that of a spoiled child, especially thinking of the final episode (temper tantrum anyone?). He does what he likes, and, it seems to me, that he doesn't really take into account what could happen as a result. He's a strategist, but only if things go as planned.

................................

.... all right, I think I lost myself somewhere in there. I'll stop there for now.


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#13 | Back to Top06-24-2008 07:49:20 PM

BioKraze
Faceless Master
From: Yuma, Arizona (USA)
Registered: 11-26-2006
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

Jellineck wrote:

Dios: ...*reaches out and touches Anthy's boob*....Ah crap. *balls drop and POOF! he becomes Akio*

What's with me today? I find this incredibly amusing for some reason. emot-biggrin


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#14 | Back to Top06-24-2008 08:20:10 PM

Aine Silveria
Pumpkin Bride
From: Allegan, MI
Registered: 11-03-2006
Posts: 2098

Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

BioKraze wrote:

Jellineck wrote:

Dios: ...*reaches out and touches Anthy's boob*....Ah crap. *balls drop and POOF! he becomes Akio*

What's with me today? I find this incredibly amusing for some reason. emot-biggrin

You're not the only one.

I just didn't bring it up because I was trying to be serious. emot-biggrin


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#15 | Back to Top06-24-2008 09:30:58 PM

OnlyInThisLight
KING OF ALL DUCKS
Registered: 01-15-2008
Posts: 4411

Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

P.D.M. wrote:

First of all(and I am hoping that I'll get cleared up on the matter because seeing you guys I don't know what to think) for some reason I can't consider Akio as childish. I just don't see him being so immature as everyone else here on the forums says. I don't remember seeing any occasion where he should have taken responsibility for something but didn't. Not regarding the duelling game of course, but nobody in a position like that would take the blame for what goes on in there. Besides, he's living the life! He made a world where everything goes as he wants! I consider that achieving the dream. I mean, you guys would like that too, wouldn't you?

Well, Akio is immature in alot of ways.  No, he does not act like a spoiled child on the surface.   But why does he look like an adult to you? Because he drives fast and has lots of sex and drinks brandy?  SKU puts alot of effort into showing that no, these are not what make you an adult, but if you believe they are, then well.....you're probably early-series Touga.  And just as easy to bait.

Those swords that Anthy feels the pain of?  Yeah.  They were meant for Dios.  Those people were going to force Dios outta that shed, one way or another, which is why they brought weapons in the first place.  At the Rose Gate, Anthy again is assailed by swords to distract them from Akio.

Yes, Akio is living the life, one he has created to be completely in his control.  He has done this by cutting himself off from the outside world and by using his sister as a living sheild from pain.  He manipulates those around him cruelly with no actual true, concrete goal in mind.  He doesn't really care about Dios's power.  The entire dueling game was orchestrated to keep Anthy strung along, kill time, and amuse him.

In short, Akio doesn't take responsibility for himself or face the consequences of any of his actions, he lets his sister knowingly suffer them for him.  This is what makes him a child. 

But if you really want some awesome and much better written and more in-depth Akio analysis, then you havehavehave to check out Giovanna's Akio Shrine "The Long-Legged Older Man" over on Empty Movement.


P.D.M. wrote:

The minor one would be that I believe to have proof that not only are Anthy and Akio not human, they actually gained (whoa boy)eternity. And showing Anthy to Utena was by far not a deed by Dios.

My point is this. In the episode "Nemuro Memorial Hall" I think, Mikage remembers Tokiko being seduced by Akio. Now we would get to think ergo that the burning of the hall occured between the time that child Dios got Utena into the whole thing and the time Utena came to Ohtori. WRONG!

In episode "Qualifications of a Duellist", when Mikage get's his final mindfuck, his last line is:

How many decades has it been since I saw you last?

Decades! Decades people! It is my assumption that Anthy and Akio change age(and gender) as they see fit, seeing as, again, Tokiko get's seduced by the Akio we all know and love\hate, while six years prior to the events at Ohtori, a child Dios comforts Utena.

They probably are immortal, but their eternity is a shallow scheduled speil of what life should truly be.  They both remain hidden in their coffins, though those same harnesses have different names.  Akio and Anthy do not age, do not change.  But can you say that Anthy is in any way happy?  Constantly trying and failing to acheive the power of Dios once more, always lying, always being used?   Spinning roses, spiral staircases, and a car that goes nowhere very very fast are all used to represent, among other things, eternity.  One single moment, thought, time, deed, person, ideal or event that merely keeps repeating and looping back on itself over and over again.

Utena in her coffin needed to be shown something eternal.  What was it that Dios showed her that made her want to be a Prince and continue living?  The Eternal suffering of the Rose Bride.

The real Mamiya shows Nemuro roses his sister has dried in order to preserve, and they look beautiful.  But Mamiya still knows that they are dead, and will never wilt or fade or change in any manner, and he wonders if the roses want to be kept like that.

That kind of eternity doesn't sound very fun to me. :c

P.D.M. wrote:

To start, I don't think that Akio is an illusion. It's what Dios has become, curtesy of little sister, and he has sex with her to hurt her for what she has done. See, there they are in that shed, and Dios is critical, with the crowd outside, calling him to fight back whatever menace is terrorising them. I mean hey, that's what princes are for, amirite? Anthy is scared that Dios may die, so she seals away his powers inside him. I wouldn't go so far as to name the method sex(it's unlikely that she could have gotten Dios's you-know-what up and have intercourse with him in such a short period of time, especially being his sister and all), I'd say it is more likely Anthy's innate perk of "unstabability". So she goes out, gets lynched, and put in the coffin. Now I believe that Dios/Akio thinks Anthys act was unnecessary, as he would have been able to win in the end, but instead, he is now left with no power, no means of getting it back by himself, an astral projection sister-somethingoranother that now has all the power he had, and a recorded epic fail of saving his sister(I'd like to point out that IMO the reasons for that were beyond his control, and still IMO it was Anthy's fault). And about this, two things bug me:

1. Because of the above statement, I believe that the power to revolutionise the world, whichever way you look at it, rightfully belongs to Akio. It was taken from his former self, and it should be given back to him. The method he uses to gain his power back is a whole other story, but in my eyes this fact remains.

2. We can take into consideration that after the shack incident the life of Akio depended on the Anthy-ghost. It's what gives them power to change sex, age and stuff. And the last scene is basically Anthy telling Akio that there is someone better suited to free her and get his power than him(someone who can actually free her)(who the hell takes "not that long" of a time to decide to leave after something like that coffin incident anyway?). She leaves Akio, and this begs the question if this girl is as selfish as I for some reason tend to believe? And if her powers are keeping Akio alive, if she goes away, will he... *gasp*

Well, the physical properties of intercourse might not really matter.  Might not have even been intercourse.  Just innapropriate touching.  What matters is that she in some way 'tainted' him.

The thing is, it doesn't matter whose fault it is.  Who couldn't do what, who hurt whom first.  In these kinds of situations, laying blame gets you nowhere, especially since the two did used to love eachother.  The fact is is that right now Anthy is suffering, Akio is falling farther and farther down, and the world and everyone in it doesn't wanna face who they are or confront what they actually need.

And what would Akio have done with that power?  He can't go back to being Dios (I believe he even said as much himself) just like lost innocence can't be restored and an adult can't become a child again.  That's not how life works.  You have to keep moving forward, and not let yourself get hung up on the past and despairs and failures, both physically, emotionally, and day-to-day.

Akio would have just used that power for himself, or for nothing at all.  And even if he had become Dios again, what would have happened?  The world would have it's Eternally Flawed and Universal Scapegoat back again, I suppose.  No one would have to grow up or help eachother or save themselves or face their own problems, or the things that challenge them mentally and emotionally.  The perfect world built on a lie tattoed on a little boy's back, with everyone's eyes closed.  The absolute destiny? 

Apocalpyse.

And Anthy couldn't really care less about Akio at the end of the series.  Sure, she is partly to blame, but so is he.  He's still in his coffin, what he needs to do now is either stay inside it, and without Anthy, more than likely rot, or step out of it and grow up, and face his past misdeeds and take care of himself.  He survived an encounter with the swords, too, you know.  It's not his life that is dependant on Anthy, just his ego/psyche.

He's old enough now to watch over himself. 

And like I said (believe, interpret, whatever), he was never going to help Anthy in the first place.


And Anthy probably took a bit of time to wrangle up some dough and get real-life financial and educational and legality issues outta the way before she left Ohtori.  Moving away is not the kinda thing you do on an impulse, some planning must be done or you will more than likely end up on the streets.


Jellineck wrote:

I don't see Anthy as an adult. I see her as wiser and more mature than most of the other cast members, but in the end, she's still not strong enough to take the last step into adulthood. Her pessimism and fatalistic view is just a far darker shade of immaturity than Utena's. Utena believes that everything will always turn out for the best. Anthy believes everything will turn out for the worst. Neither are entirely true, for they are the dramatic ends of the spectrum. By opening herself up to allow healing and friendship, Anthy breaks out of her coffin and progresses to the point where she can leave Ohtori.

I agree completly.  God I word shit stupid.  There are alot of adult things about Anthy besides sex, but you are right, she too is trapped in her coffin.  It may not be named Innocence or Narcissism or Hate, but her cyncical coffin forged from Guilt and Lost Hope is a coffin noneletheless.

Like anyone seemingly stuck in a bad or abusive relationship, anyone on the outside can see that they are simply trapping themselves.



BONUS NOTE:  I mentioned earlier that Akio wearing Anthy's red color and gold bands could be symbolism of her seduction, and also mentioned that he uses sex to both dominate and mock her and remind her of her guilt.  Whenever the two are seen pre or post-coitus in the series, it is implied that during the act, Akio remains as clothed as possible, while Anthy is pretty much always nude.  This may not just be a way of expressing dominance and control, as nudity can be used to humiliate one and make them appear or feel vulnerable and not in control, but may also be Akio doing it on purpose to nonverbally drive home to Anthy the guilt and shame he wants her to feel for being the one who tainted him, by reminding her of their little roll in the hay back in the shed during every sexual encounter they have.

Last edited by OnlyInThisLight (07-01-2008 11:00:06 PM)

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#16 | Back to Top06-24-2008 10:00:40 PM

Kaelyndra
Pained Growlithe
Registered: 04-18-2008
Posts: 557

Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

To start: I'm amazing I'm jumping into the analysis. I once threw e-mails back and forth for months and months on just analyzation of Anthy. I actually went and dug them up to add to this discussion, and I'm rather terrified of doing so since you all have such wonderful and in depth things.

On Anthy's Eternity

There is something quite different about eternity that most people seem to undermine the concept of. It is an eternity, one that become a monotonous task as time goes on. It becomes, simply, life. In the beginning Anthy very well might have endured eternal suffering. Indeed, it is said that she suffers, but there is a strange aspect with brutality, pain, and repetition.

In the typical human mind, when speaking of trauma, many people create ways to cope. The aftereffects of repetitive trauma do not often hold true until the situation is broken. The actual brutality of an event does not become clear until there are options. Take, for example, a slave: Until knowledge touches their surface they know nothing else. When they begin to learn of freedom they cannot have, they begin to resent themselves, resent the knowledge as well, and sometimes will even wish it to have never come into their possession. When it comes to Anthy's case, her mind works the other direction.

She begins to build a wall of: This is life. It's been brought up before, certainly, Anthy as the role of a beaten wife.

Here's a direct quote from an e-mail I wrote before:

I can just see a youthful and more "Dios" Akio saying, "I'll find you a prince, Himemiya, just stick with me. I'll end your suffering, Dios still exists, for the both of us. I just need your help. I can't do it alone." Something along those lines. And of course, he lost his way, and where's Anshii to go? The world that ISN'T Akio rang her through with a million swords, its not something she can trust, but she knows she can trust her brother. So she just hangs on, and pretends, wishes so very hard that everything is right and it's going to be okay. She loves her brother and can't bear to see him in any pain, so she takes it for him. I believe she thinks, "The world is cruel to him because of what I've done, taking him away when he was sick. So I'll be his sickness and his pain so he doesn't have to be, because that's the kind of good person he is." She knows, she really knows what's happened, but she crosses her fingers. And obviously its been going on for so long its become something she's used to. She doesn't even think about how things are anymore. That is, until little Utena comes along and slowly changes her mind.

The above is perhaps a more optimistic view of Akio and Anthy's youthhood. It is assuming there was this goodness, and that the original fairytale is true. As said above by all your wonderful analysis, other scenarios lead to much the same results.

Trying to wrap up my ramblefet: What I'm trying to say here is that Anthy no longer things of the real world as normal. Just as Utena has her normal, Touga his, Miki his, Anthy has this twistedness with her brother. To some extent, depending on how long her eternity has been, she may very well be happy even if this happiness is a disillusioned thing grasped from short bursts of power. The funny thing about eternity is that it's nearly impossible to comprehend. It's terrifying, and, in cases where it requires and time allows, mind numbing.

Utena comes along, breaks the numbness and suddenly Anthy has to think again. She must make rational, coherent, unpracticed and uneternal things. Anthy, at least in the beginning, does not want Utena or anything she has to offer and she is very much obliged to watching her fall so she can get back to her eternity. Still, in the beginning, she seems utterly amused at the prospect Utena might bring to the situation but doesn't seem very worried that Utena will win. She knows Akio has control, and in some sense it also gives her that knowledge she can return to eternity, her normal flux, what she knows. It can be called a child's game, but it's played with adult principles.


This all really needs to be taken with several grains of salt, and I don't have much to say on anything else right now. Feel free to nitpick; It's very much jumbled and disorganized. My apologies.

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#17 | Back to Top06-24-2008 10:14:24 PM

Prince_of_Stars
Someday Shiner
From: The Hellsing Organization
Registered: 06-12-2008
Posts: 4165
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

I swear you guys are GENIUSES! My eyes have been opened so much from looking at the different yet very similar opinions and ideas. I will be posting a little analysis on the symbolism in episode 39, and this will help me quite a bit. Thank you all very much, and I look forward to even more opinions on the Anthy/Akio/Dios dynamic.


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#18 | Back to Top06-25-2008 12:10:05 AM

SexingTouga24/7/365
is on a BOAT!
Registered: 12-10-2006
Posts: 2267

Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

emot-aaa yall are fucking great with the analysis and whatnot anyway... I have another question what happened to Akio and Dios after Anthy left ? Really what in the hell did they do?
( Or if at all possible could they have been somehow shown the way back to well each other and reunited or redeemed ??) This I cant even word right emot-gonk


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#19 | Back to Top06-25-2008 12:21:53 AM

RoseFire
Ruthless Deflorist
From: OK
Registered: 06-19-2008
Posts: 302
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

I'm pretty sure what happened to Akio and Dios after Anthy left is all speculation... correct me if I'm wrong emot-tongue

(Although technically Dios hasn't existed in like forever anyway >_<)

There's a lot of different scenarios that could have happened, it's never told what does happen.


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#20 | Back to Top06-25-2008 12:51:55 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

RoseFire wrote:

I'm pretty sure what happened to Akio and Dios after Anthy left is all speculation... correct me if I'm wrong emot-tongue

(Although technically Dios hasn't existed in like forever anyway >_<)

There's a lot of different scenarios that could have happened, it's never told what does happen.

Yeah, you're right on that front -- we don't know, and we likely never will. I would think, though, that people's ideas on what happened to them afterwards would give a person a really good insight into how they viewed the series. I think that OnlyInThisLight has pretty much summed up how I view the whole thing really well; I don't really disagree with anything she's said at all. emot-biggrin Akio is a child because his world revolves around him. My first impression of Gio's site, actually, was total etc-wankgirletc-wankgirletc-wankgirl and that was because of the name. As OITL pointed out, a central theme of the show is things that go round and round and round and yet end up nowhere but where they started. It's an empty movement. This is why Akio and Anthy are static even though they appear to be moving, and this is why Anthy got out of it. She got off the merry-go-round, Akio's still on it. (That's probably echoed somewhat by Utena's vision of Akio and Dios on the merry-go-round; Dios is hanging off the horse like a child, whereas Akio stands on the horse like he's above such silly things. Note, however, he's still on said merry-go-round. It's all one big illusion, and the tragedy of Akio's character is that he doesn't necessarily see that. And likely doesn't until Anthy takes off her own blinkers, lays them before him, and walks out the door.)

This is a curious question on my part -- when you first saw the end of the show, were you uplifted or depressed? I was totally psyched. I loved it. It made me happy, because I saw right from then what Utena had done. However, a lot of people I've spoken to previously about the show were depressed as hell until we walked through the layers of meaning. I think this is at least partially because a friend told me that once I had got to the end of the last episode to rewind back to the start of the previous ep and watch the opening credits. Seriously, that was the best advice I've ever been given -- it sums up the entire show very, very well. And you never notice it until then. But...yeah. I just find it interesting, that I could be so happy and so many other people so depressed until they'd seen it a couple more times! (This is completely at odds with my reaction to another television show that had a similar WTF ending that left me distraught for weeks...)


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#21 | Back to Top06-25-2008 01:58:20 AM

RoseFire
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From: OK
Registered: 06-19-2008
Posts: 302
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

I was depressed because I wanted to see Anthy and Utena reunite and have smex on a couch emot-tongue

But other than that... I was happy lol


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#22 | Back to Top06-25-2008 03:29:08 AM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

Just a couple of thoughts I'd like to share: I find myself assuming that Anthy was the first to initiate the sexual aspects of the relationship just from how the series treats the other sibling relationships. Nanami's loving devotion to Touga, and Kozue's insane jealousy towards anyone her brother fancies seem to me two sides of the coin that is Anthy. Who knows how it started, though. Maybe it was just an innocent kiss at first, perhaps with a whispered promise of "I'll keep you safe, my prince." (Jellineck's version is much more amusing.)

Also, I honestly can't bring myself to think of Akio as childish. (That abomination Movie Akio, yeah. Series Akio, no.) Sure, the world revolves around him. Yes, he doesn't accept responsibility for his own actions, and he wants everything his way. Are these traits limited to children? No way. I'd go as far as to say that the majority of human beings never "grow out" of that bahavior, and as adults they just learn to get away with it. So basically, I just look at Akio as I think he was intended: a representation of the corrupt world of grown-ups. That's my take, anyway.

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#23 | Back to Top06-25-2008 03:37:13 AM

RoseFire
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From: OK
Registered: 06-19-2008
Posts: 302
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

Eh I know someone who throws tantrums and everything, and assumes the world revolves around her, but she still is an adult and she tries to act like an adult most of the rest of the time... but she's still extremely immature and childish.

I think that's Akio... immature... childish... but still an adult. Still seen as an adult by most, unless someone sees his actual childish side come out, then the words "sheesh what a baby" come to mind.


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#24 | Back to Top06-25-2008 05:08:59 AM

P.D.M.
Touga Topper
From: Budapest, Hungary
Registered: 06-24-2008
Posts: 54

Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

OnlyInThisLight wrote:

you're probably early-series Touga.  And just as easy to bait.

I don't know why, but that hurt.

So, let's take it in a way that Akio is immature. So then what does make you mature?(Don't answer that. It won't be anime that tells me this.) I checked out Gio's shrine way before I even registered, but I had to wait until now that I actually saw some points as to the why. Altough I'm still unconviced.

I actually think that apart from enjoying the ride, Akio does wish to help and free Anthy. I believe he just thinks along the lines of: If I am going to do this, I might as well enjoy myself in the process. I'm on the firm belief that not a single lie or fake emotion is said or played in the last two episodes.

OnlyInThisLight wrote:
And what would Akio have done with that power?  He can't go back to being Dios (I believe he even said as much himself) just like lost innocence can't be restored and an adult can't become a child again.  That's not how life works.  You have to keep moving forward, and not let yourself get hung up on the past and despairs and failures, both physically, emotionally, and day-to-day.

Akio would have just used that power for himself, or for nothing at all.  And even if he had become Dios again, what would have happened?  The world would have it's Eternally Flawed and Universal Scapegoat back again, I suppose.  No one would have to grow up or help eachother or save themselves or face their own problems, or the things that challenge them mentally and emotionally.  The perfect world built on a lie tattoed on a little boy's back, with everyone's eyes closed.  The absolute destiny?

Apocalpyse.

This is where I believe that I'm not really argueing with you guys, but more likely Ikuni and Saito. I don't think that if something good goes away, you should just accept that and go on. IMO you should try to bring that good thing back. It's not immature to want to change something that's gone haywire back to normal again.

Another thing is this "scapegoat" thing. Ikuhara and Saito are suggesting that if you ask for help from anyone you will never be able to advance in life yourself?

This is why I believe that a few of the right personal questions aked to these two could quiete possibly clear up any misteries or things people(like me) may not understand. I mean, I think that what matters here is more likely their persception, and not so much ours.

Ps.
HUGE THANKS to OnionPrince for washing away my sense of lonelyness on this thread. Great to know I'm not the only one here on IRG that thinks what I do!


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#25 | Back to Top06-25-2008 05:42:20 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: Question: Dios Saving Anthy, Anthy Saving Dios

P.D.M. wrote:

So, let's take it in a way that Akio is immature. So then what does make you mature?(Don't answer that. It won't be anime that tells me this.) I checked out Gio's shrine way before I even registered, but I had to wait until now that I actually saw some points as to the why. Altough I'm still unconviced.

I actually think that apart from enjoying the ride, Akio does wish to help and free Anthy. I believe he just thinks along the lines of: If I am going to do this, I might as well enjoy myself in the process. I'm on the firm belief that not a single lie or fake emotion is said or played in the last two episodes.

I don't think he wants to free her -- I don't think he even sees it as a matter of freeing her at all. Gio talks about a scene to great effect in the body language thread, that being the scene where Akio and Anthy are riding in the car. Given the body language and what is happening -- this is the scene where Anthy is screaming in agony as they race down the road -- I believe it's one of the very rare times we are treated to Akio's true feelings on the situation. He's agitated and frustrated, and why? Because Anthy is in pain and he can't do a damn thing about it. I don't necessarily think it's because he wants to free her, although I don't deny he cares for her. I always viewed it as an uncomfortable truth he didn't want to face. Akio tended to gloss over the truth of Anthy's sacrifice for him, I think; she took on the hatred and pain of the world so he wouldn't be hurt by it, and therefore lost the responsibility of a prince (which is to save the world, basically). Akio doesn't like to be reminded of this. He plays at being a prince, but the truth of the matter is he can't save Anthy. No matter how much she wished it, he is not her prince. We usually look at it from Anthy's side, but Akio hurts from it too.

...crap, did I just go from disagreeing to agreeing with you? Ahahahahaha. This series really IS one huge mobius strip, isn't it? emot-tongue But yeah, what makes you mature? Taking responsibility for yourself, I would think. Akio doesn't, which is why Anthy says he remains in his coffin while she leaves the school.

P.D.M.
This is where I believe that I'm not really argueing with you guys, but more likely Ikuni and Saito. I don't think that if something good goes away, you should just accept that and go on. IMO you should try to bring that good thing back. It's not immature to want to change something that's gone haywire back to normal again.

Another thing is this "scapegoat" thing. Ikuhara and Saito are suggesting that if you ask for help from anyone you will never be able to advance in life yourself?

This is why I believe that a few of the right personal questions aked to these two could quiete possibly clear up any misteries or things people(like me) may not understand. I mean, I think that what matters here is more likely their persception, and not so much ours.

...oh, I don't want to sound like I'm being cruel or anything, but that first statement you make there? That is exactly what the characters are doing. And it is why they are portrayed as static. Take Mikage as an example; as Nemuro, he had a strangely idyllic existence with Mamiya and Tokiko, a false-family that he nevertheless believed was real. The entire Black Rose Arc was Mikage trying to reconstruct this out of a house of cards. Nanami's almost sexual overtones to Touga is a result of her trying to maintain her childhood relationship with a brother who has grown up faster than she has because of the disparity of their ages. Kozue's blatantly sexual overtones to her relationship with her twin is an attempt to isolate him so that they can exist together alone in a world like the sunny garden was before it was revealed she wasn't as special and unique as he is. And then Anthy and Akio...I believe the basis of their sexual relationship is an attempt at regaining the intimacy and connection of their childhood before the fall. So...er, yeah. [scratches head] What I am saying is this: the characters are trying to bring those good times back, and therefore can not move forward. They exist as static images, pictures upon a wall, formulated butterflies sprawled upon a pin.

As for the ideal of helping others, I also see that as the cornerstone of the series. The whole point of Utena and Anthy's ending is that Utena tried to help Anthy right up to the point where she COULDN'T. Because there comes a point in everyone's life where the training wheels come off and you have to do it yourself. Utena, being the noble prince figure, didn't realise this -- not out of arrogance, but out of a blind faith in the ideal of the prince. She didn't realise the most important thing is knowing when to let go. And isn't that the whole leap between adolescence and adulthood -- your parents finally realise that you are your own person, and you have to make your own way?

Utena succeeded in creating Anthy's revolution by showing her the path she had to take -- but it was Anthy who had to walk that path. The sad part is that Utena probably didn't realise this, hence why she says she failed Anthy. The happy part, however, is that Anthy's first task on leaving Ohtori is to go to her and explain how she helped her. Anthy advanced, but although she had to take the steps herself she couldn't have done it without Utena showing her the way first.

P.D.M. wrote:

Ps.
HUGE THANKS to OnionPrince for washing away my sense of lonelyness on this thread. Great to know I'm not the only one here on IRG that thinks what I do!

Oh, please don't feel your opinion is any less than anyone else's -- we are all very opinionated, admittedly, but it's because the show has been a very personal experience for most of us. Of course we can be precious about our opinions and perceptions -- but you'll find most of us like to have them challenged, because it causes us to go deeper. And Mikage's my favourite character, so naturally GOING DEEPER is my favourite pasttime. school-devil


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

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