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HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top04-13-2008 12:57:19 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

I'm watching Fight Club and just got through the scene where the nameless main character (Norton) decides to pound the fucking face in of the obnoxious blond dude Durden seems to have taken a liking to. In this scene the narrator is letting out a bit of anger on his own, something he usually funnels into his alterego Durden, who watches the scene from a few feet away and reacts by putting on his jacket and seeming to walk away.

The sequence of shots and the overall theme remind me very much of episode 39, when Utena finally opens the coffin and Dios, who has been sitting near Akio listening to him blabber, gets up and 'leaves' on one of the horses on the carousel. I'm not sure what I'm exactly trying to pin down and articulate, so I'm hoping this thread will help break that down. Or I'll be laughed at, but the resemblance was striking and immediate to me, I was just minding my business watching the movie and went HOLY SHIT SKU.

One could leap into a suggestion about split personalities since hey, Akio and Dios are nothing if not that, but more to the point there there seemed a similarity in that both cases involved a transfer of power. Durden 'walks off' because he's not needed right then and there's nothing he can do that the main character isn't already doing. Dios also leaves right then because he's no longer needed.

Thoughts? Laughter?


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#2 | Back to Top04-13-2008 02:46:15 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

...this is interesting. I'll have to go watch the scene in question as I haven't seen the movie in a while, but the first thing that came to mind was the way the narrator said: "I wanted to destroy something beautiful." Now, I don't know where my brain is going with this, because I've a faulty recollection of the scene, but I always thought of it as being a turning point in the movie because the narrator was behaving like Tyler but not quite in the same way. Tyler was about destruction for destruction's sake; the narrator destroys something for what it is. If that makes any sense. Which it probably doesn't. The Narrator and Tyler Durden were always separate and never gelled even in fight club, which is how I always saw that scene. I suppose you could say the same about Akio and Dios; even when they were in agreement about something they were still opposites. Kind of like enantiomers; your hands are theoretically identical, but you can never superimpose them upon one another.

And I'm making no sense. Sleepytime! emot-wink


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

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#3 | Back to Top04-13-2008 05:10:40 PM

mercurynin
Flourishing Verderer
From: Honolulu, HI
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 638

Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

I'm no good at this analysis stuff.  I tend to lurk in this part of the forum, anyway.  Even still, I loves me some Fight Club, so what the hey?

Perhaps it's not a fundamental parallel, but I understand your original observation.  Instead of outright split personalities, I see Akio as Dios corrupted, which makes Dios as we see him in the series (that is, when we don't see him in flashbacks) a sort of ghost/opposite to Akio (DUH, I know).  Tyler is everything the narrator wants to be: "I look like you wanna look, fuck like you wanna fuck," etc.  So when the narrator takes on Tyler's persona, he is Tyler, but he can just as easily go back to being the narrator.  As Clarice pointed out, the two never gel.  To the first-time viewer, Marla drops subtle but helpful hints concerning this split and the revelation to come (see the morning-after scene for a blatant example of what I'm talking about).

However, Akio can't turn his Akio side on and off, like the narrator.  In this case, Akio and Dios were once both the same person in a sense, but it's really more of a before-and-after situation.  Akio sure as shit tries to regain some of his Dios side by playing the prince--it worked on Utena, but then, she's no mental giant, and on Mrs. Ohtori, who willed herself to believe it. But as I just stated, he's corrupted, so for those who want to or actually can see the truth, it's not hard.  It's kinda apples and oranges, really.

Am I completely off-base here?


You know our hearts beat time out very slowly.  You know our hearts beat time -- they are waiting for something that'll never arrive.

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#4 | Back to Top04-13-2008 07:33:44 PM

BalamiyaVardihi
High Tripper
From: New Jersey
Registered: 12-16-2007
Posts: 243

Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

MOTHER.FUCKING.YES. emot-biggrin

Excellent.


Twirling round with this familiar parabol
Spinning, weaving round each new experience.
Recognize this as a holy gift and
Celebrate this chance to be alive and breathing

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#5 | Back to Top04-13-2008 07:55:06 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

...now I need to see Fight Club. Actually, I need to see it anyway, but this just makes it moreso.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#6 | Back to Top04-13-2008 08:58:21 PM

OnionPrince
Covert Diarist
From: Nagoya
Registered: 10-28-2007
Posts: 876

Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

Holy crap, I never thought of that before, but I can totally see the connection now. Dios's (in)action in the final episode makes more sense to me in that light.

Also, I kind of wonder how the transition of Dios to Akio went. Did he, too, not realize at first that Akio was the same person as him...?

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#7 | Back to Top04-14-2008 11:33:49 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

mercurynin wrote:

Am I completely off-base here?

Absolutely not. That Akio and Dios can't officially switch back and forth is a big problem I've had with trying to explain them in terms of psychological illness. I don't think you're supposed to anyway, I think it's more a suggestion of the frailty of an archetype than the series seriously examining MPD, but I do think it was made easy to think of the latter in terms of explaining the former. It's just I've always been tempted, like a challenge to myself, to write an essay trying to explain Akio and Dios in completely realistic terms. Like I said, the lack of changeability was a major challenge, MPD doesn't work in absolutes that way.

Like I said, I'm certainly not arguing that the connection is deliberate or even truly there but it's an interesting springboard. I was also reminded of how Durden explains that sometimes the narrator is Norton, and when he is, he imagines he's watching Durden, and that reminded me of episode 13, where Akio's yapping his mouth off at Dios, as well as when he does it in episode 39. If you could argue any existence of Dios after Akio takes over, it's in that form, where Akio imagines him nearby and talks to him. Dios, of course, never answers. Perhaps this is to show that while he exists in some form it's not one that has any say in what they do.

Shattered...see Fight Club. Fucking awesome movie. I hear the movie is actually way better than the book.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#8 | Back to Top04-15-2008 12:29:52 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

I can attest to this. The book has an unnecessary extra character and has lots of extra oddness with Tyler and Marla that might make sense, but is distracting. The movie on the other hand rocks my fucking socks off.

This discussion presents an interesting insight into the character of Dios. Jack creates Tyler as his superior alter ego. Tyler is the way he wants to be, does what he wants to do...generally gives him an excuse for all of the things he's wanted, but is afraid of. So what about Dios? Did he lust to be Akio all along? Did he harbor desires for Anthy, even as the prince? Did he secretly want to control everyone from behind the scenes? Is Akio nothing more than Dios's twisted wish fulfillment?


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
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#9 | Back to Top04-15-2008 03:39:51 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

Stormcrow wrote:

I can attest to this. The book has an unnecessary extra character and has lots of extra oddness with Tyler and Marla that might make sense, but is distracting. The movie on the other hand rocks my fucking socks off.

I haven't got anything useful to say about the thread, but I do have to say the book has a better ending, although the movie's is snappier. They're just different enough in tone to make you wonder who learned what from one to the other. school-devil


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#10 | Back to Top04-15-2008 10:50:35 AM

Ashnod
La poétesse revolutionnaire
From: Missouri, United States
Registered: 03-01-2007
Posts: 1243
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Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

Stormcrow wrote:

I can attest to this. The book has an unnecessary extra character and has lots of extra oddness with Tyler and Marla that might make sense, but is distracting. The movie on the other hand rocks my fucking socks off.

This discussion presents an interesting insight into the character of Dios. Jack creates Tyler as his superior alter ego. Tyler is the way he wants to be, does what he wants to do...generally gives him an excuse for all of the things he's wanted, but is afraid of. So what about Dios? Did he lust to be Akio all along? Did he harbor desires for Anthy, even as the prince? Did he secretly want to control everyone from behind the scenes? Is Akio nothing more than Dios's twisted wish fulfillment?

That is damn eerie. I can see Dios wearing down and going crazy just like the narrator did, and Anthy having to endure the Marla role. It's almost worth writing up an entire SKU version of Fight Club just to see how it would work out.


Flowers without names blooming in the field can only sway in the wind. But I was born with a destiny of roses, born to live in passion and glory.

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#11 | Back to Top04-15-2008 03:50:55 PM

Raven Nightshade
Someday Shiner
From: Louisiana
Registered: 12-17-2006
Posts: 2916

Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

Giovanna wrote:

...and that reminded me of episode 13, where Akio's yapping his mouth off at Dios....

Random sidenote: I thought Akio was talking to Dios in episode 13 too. Then I watched it again, and I'm wondering if he's actually talking to Anthy.

Anywho....

Stormcrow wrote:

This discussion presents an interesting insight into the character of Dios. Jack creates Tyler as his superior alter ego. Tyler is the way he wants to be, does what he wants to do...generally gives him an excuse for all of the things he's wanted, but is afraid of. So what about Dios? Did he lust to be Akio all along? Did he harbor desires for Anthy, even as the prince? Did he secretly want to control everyone from behind the scenes? Is Akio nothing more than Dios's twisted wish fulfillment?

I haven't seen Fight Club, but I do have a reference point on Multiple Personality Disorder, aka Disassociative Identity Disorder. The above statement is essentially what happened to two of the main female characters on One Life to Live. It also happened to one of the female characters on Heroes.

The alternate personality (or alter) is usually created to handle all the things that the main personality can't. On One Life to Live, both characters were victims of sexual molestation as children, and their primary alter was in charge of dealing with the emotional trauma. The main personality would shut off and the alter would take over, often with a different name. The alter would often be aware of the things that the main personality does, but the reverse wasn't true. Interactions between the two were signified by talking to her reflection, or the reflection would speak first.

In terms of Akio/Dios, Dios is the primary personality, but Akio's been in charge so long that Dios was no longer the dominant personality. It's entirely possible that watching Anthy become a human pincushion for his sake was enough for the Akio-alter to take over fully, and possibly permanently. I doubt that's where Akio originated, though. He probably first appeared when Dios started having sexual thoughts about his own sister.


Sometimes I wonder if I'm ever gonna make it home again.
It's so far and out of sight.
I really need someone to talk to and nobody else
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#12 | Back to Top04-15-2008 11:57:09 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8730
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Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

Raven Nightshade wrote:

Random sidenote: I thought Akio was talking to Dios in episode 13 too. Then I watched it again, and I'm wondering if he's actually talking to Anthy.

I think he's jerking off over how clever he is that he can make either way make sense. emot-rolleyes I just tend to favor his speaking to Dios because he's pretty flippant and smartass in that episode and he usually handles Anthy a little more carefully.

Stormcrow wrote:

This discussion presents an interesting insight into the character of Dios. Jack creates Tyler as his superior alter ego. Tyler is the way he wants to be, does what he wants to do...generally gives him an excuse for all of the things he's wanted, but is afraid of. So what about Dios? Did he lust to be Akio all along? Did he harbor desires for Anthy, even as the prince? Did he secretly want to control everyone from behind the scenes? Is Akio nothing more than Dios's twisted wish fulfillment?

Smells like Original Sin to me. school-devil


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#13 | Back to Top10-02-2008 11:59:47 AM

KissFromARose
Thorn of Death
From: Austin, Tx
Registered: 09-29-2008
Posts: 506

Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

1. LOVE fight club.
2. LOVE fight club book.

3. (more on point!)

I was under the impression that... Dios is the... brother that Anthy saved... and akio is like... all the bad shit that anthy didnt bother with... If that makes sense?

Im NOT saying that Dios (pre-separation) was a man whore and a prince... but i AM saying that... when Anthy sealed Dios away... maybe Akio was kind of like.. the bitter "human" element of Dios... Dios himself is the power, the entity... Kind of like "the holy spirit." he is not the human form, he doesnt take ON a physical body... however Akio is like the physical remnants of Dios... and therefore succumbs to his human desires... (make sense??)

So i think that technically... instead of a MPD... it just IS a multiple personality... .. Akio isnt mentally ill (at least in the schitzo way) but there are 2 separate people from 1 being.

Am i making any sense at all?

it makes sense to me...

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#14 | Back to Top10-07-2008 07:06:20 PM

Baka Kakumei Reanna
Atlantean Singer
From: Wisconsin
Registered: 07-31-2007
Posts: 572
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Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

Akio actually speaking to Anthy in episode 13? I wouldn't write that off because of there being the appearance of Dios, because we all know full well that what we see isn't necessarily what is meant, or even implied. But she DOES appear behind him in the doorway at the end of the episode. I may have to go back and watch it again to see if Akio walking away from Dios and joining Anthy correlate cleanly in any way, unless someone else's memory serves them better?

Either way, love the idea of it, as well as your Fight Club observation, Gio. I haven't seen the movie since I watched it for film class back in college so I really ought to see it again and keep this in mind.


We see things not as they are, we see things as we are.

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#15 | Back to Top10-08-2008 03:05:42 PM

lex
Master Dominus of SRS BZN
From: in absolute splendor
Registered: 11-27-2007
Posts: 1784

Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

I will get into the analysis when I have time, but I loved the book and movie like others have said.

First rule of fight club: do not talk about fight club.

First rule of Ohtori academy: don't talk about student council?


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#16 | Back to Top05-08-2009 10:09:06 AM

YostinAust
Pathtracer
From: Tallahassee, Florida
Registered: 04-02-2009
Posts: 352

Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

On the ep 39 scene: Dios leaving is probably more significant in regards to his relationship with Utena, rather than with Akio. At this point, Utena doesn't need a prince anymore - she is one. With regards to the Dios-Akio thing though, I always interpreted more as Akio talking to the man he used to be. Like he's ranting at the mirror because deep down he's insecure. Though on a realism note, it's pretty much an accepted psychological fact now that MPD/DID doesn't really exist. Cases of DID actually arise in therapy or after the patient has seen a depiction of DID. It's something that patients trick themselves into believing. since DID patients are almost always highly suggestible and vulnerable to hypnosis.

And the author of the Fight Club book has declared that he himslef prefers the movie. He thinks the ending was better. His only gripe was that they cut out his in-book explanation of how to make homemade napalm, which he worked really hard to find.


"In this age, the mere example of non-conformity, the mere refusal to bend the knee to custom, is itself a service"
     - John Stuart Mill, On Liberty

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#17 | Back to Top05-12-2009 02:54:28 AM

Soukougnan
Black Rosarian
From: home. sort of.
Registered: 01-02-2009
Posts: 373

Re: SKU and...Fight Club? Eh?

BalamiyaVardihi wrote:

MOTHER.FUCKING.YES. emot-biggrin

Excellent.

quoted for truth.
can't think of anything to say that hasn't been said except that if you haven't read the book, you MUST.

that movie was magical for me.
your observations, Gio, make me need to go watch the movie again.
emot-gonk


what-- where did i go?

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