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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top11-02-2006 12:29:20 PM

G&Ysnumber1fan
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From: On the Isle of Lesbos
Registered: 10-25-2006
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The stars...Akio's obssession

Is there some type of symbolic meaning behind it? Because I like astronomy and he does too apparently, but I thought he was just a good observer but after looking at certain episodes again, I feel as if he is talking about something else? Am I wrong?


Akio..and James Brown(R.I.P.) have two things in common:
1)They are sex machines...
2)They are the only ones that could possibly make jumping over the windshield of a car look effortless..

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#2 | Back to Top11-02-2006 12:55:41 PM

Yasha
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From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

emot-aaa O SHI emot-aaa

Gio will arrive in 5...4...3...2...


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#3 | Back to Top11-02-2006 12:56:20 PM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Well, the truth is he has no interest whatsoever in the stars. emot-wink

In all seriousness, Akio uses the stars as a metaphor (almost literal one though...) for people, and it's a layered metaphor to the point where I get dizzy trying to write an essay that includes all of it. At the most basic, though, you could look at it as the confusion of the planetarium and his stargazing.

A planetarium is something you use to project an image of the stars for study, you do not observe the real thing that way. You wouldn't, for example, photograph the moon or look for new comets with a planetarium, and yet the series seems to think you'll assume he does this, and that the planetarium doubles as an observatory, though there are no devices in that room that suggest it can serve as an astronomical observatory. None. The only thing that fits in at all there is that it's raised high, and ground optical observatories are ideally built at high altitudes. But the benefit of Akio have a projector at the 'top of the world' is not for stargazing. He's projecting. After all, we know very well his projector doesn't stop at the opaque dome of his tower. Akio projects the image he desires of the real stars onto the dome that is the sky, which is to say, in his world, stars that already exist (the students) are projected by him in the image he chooses. A planetarium is not necessarily accurate, it can certainly force the stars to be placed incorrectly, and someone looking at the projection would never know the difference and never question that it was inaccurate if they weren't familiar with the actual night sky.

So basically, Akio's interest in the stars is his interest in the people around him, and the projector he uses projects his image of the stars onto his world, just as he positions the students where he wants them, without their consent and without regard for where they should be or would be outside his world. The metaphor is frequently reinforced by his speaking of those around him as stars (and comets). In one episode, his use of this metaphor leads Utena to call him 'the brightest one around', which would be the sun. That's a whole other bag of metaphor, although I can't resist pointing out the affiliation with Lucifer, who is often connected with the sun.

Edit: Damn you, Yasha! emot-mad

Last edited by Giovanna (11-02-2006 12:58:30 PM)


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#4 | Back to Top11-02-2006 01:00:01 PM

G&Ysnumber1fan
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From: On the Isle of Lesbos
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Oh ok then...I have learned something new:school:

Erm, well, I know Venus (the Roman goddess of love, yes I am a Greco-Roman myth lover) is considered the morning star, and Lucifier is sometimes refered to as being the morning star as well. Interestingly enough that love spelled backwards sounds like evil isn't it?

Well, I like looking at the stars, I plan on getting a telescope so I can go out and look at the constellation of Orion carefully.

Last edited by G&Ysnumber1fan (11-02-2006 01:02:27 PM)


Akio..and James Brown(R.I.P.) have two things in common:
1)They are sex machines...
2)They are the only ones that could possibly make jumping over the windshield of a car look effortless..

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#5 | Back to Top11-02-2006 05:42:32 PM

Ragnarok
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From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

It should be noted that while Akio heavily implicates a connection between himself and Lucifer (via his name originating from Venus.) the connection between Lucifer and Satan is due to a widely spread mistranslation. In actuality Lucifer was never a fallen angel at all and is not a proper alias of Satan.

Akio, likely to have known this (Even if the writers didn't.) could be making a connection between himself and Satan/evilness-in-general due to Utena's lack of knowledge on the subject.

Or he could be indicating that often people misunderstand the true nature of something due to misinformation.

Or his words about the morning star only being visible at night may not actually relate to the nature of Lucifer at all.

Other explanations are also possible, but of course all Utena thinks is "Gee, Akio, you sure know a lot about stars! Ps. I looooove you. etc-love"


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#6 | Back to Top11-02-2006 06:10:26 PM

Almaser
Qualified Duellist
From: Brisbane
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 727

Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Ragnarok wrote:

It should be noted that while Akio heavily implicates a connection between himself and Lucifer (via his name originating from Venus.) the connection between Lucifer and Satan is due to a widely spread mistranslation. In actuality Lucifer was never a fallen angel at all and is not a proper alias of Satan.

Akio, likely to have known this (Even if the writers didn't.) could be making a connection between himself and Satan/evilness-in-general due to Utena's lack of knowledge on the subject.

Or he could be indicating that often people misunderstand the true nature of something due to misinformation.

Or his words about the morning star only being visible at night may not actually relate to the nature of Lucifer at all.

Other explanations are also possible, but of course all Utena thinks is "Gee, Akio, you sure know a lot about stars! Ps. I looooove you. etc-love"

Not to mention that his metaphor is still quite apt even taking into account the misinformation about Lucifer.
Lucifer was still originally an angel of highest rank, generally placed as either seraph, cherub or archangel, who while not the Enemy himself, was complicit in rebellion against heaven and was cast into hell as punishment.
So perhaps this is explaining that while he was a prince in heaven, he has now become quite the opposite - quite a good way of hinting to Utena that "hay I wuz Dios." Not that she's listening.
Furthermore, his name comes from the Latin 'lux' and 'ferros,' that is to say his name means 'the bearer of light.' Since the princely or heroic figure is usually identified with the light, another good connection.

So really, shitloads of metaphorical play in that scene... oh Ikuhara, you bastard etc-love

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#7 | Back to Top11-03-2006 07:43:13 AM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Oh wow, awareness of the difference between Satan and Lucifer. etc-love I love you guys. etc-love

I think Akio was well aware of the difference and ignoring it in light of the deeper goal of breaking my brain with layered metaphors and connections. Ikuhara emot-mad (I've always wondered but I suck at Japanese...the script translations show him to keep calling it a star, is he doing that? And does he also describe it as 'sparkling'? Because if he does, it's more proof he's completely evil and a total jackass. emot-mad)

I think he was making a point of using misinformation, but also it was a means to get at the Satan thing, since, well Akio would rather like connecting himself to that particular personality, wouldn't he? The question is which version of Satan is Akio thinking first of? The original 'adversary'? He was never evil, he was only another agent of the lord, doing the dirty work of being the necessary opposite. This wouldn't be the only instance in the series of Akio going with an interpretation that absolves him of blame. Or is he going with the modern interpretation, which you could really consider a bit of a fallen prince, couldn't you? These days Satan's often a sexual creature, seductive and dangerous and personal, turning the virtue of love over to the end of lust. Or is he referring to Satan as the agent of a philosophy whereby pride is the virtue and self-sacrifice is folly? Most depictions of Satan (older ones especially) don't make him out to be evil, or aware he's sinning. Satan thought he was right, and that from where he was trapped in hell, his vision of the world was still clearer than it would have been in heaven, surrounded by ignorance (innocence). This is the version Milton goes with, and he develops him in a way that leads us to think Satan pathetic anyway, which is quite familiar here.

'Bearer of light', 'morning star', and all other manners of that idea show up all over the place in different pantheons and religions, using the title that refers to that theme I suspect also served to open the floodgates for other references, because really why limit himself to Satan? At any rate it amuses me he'd draw himself out to be the sun when the series dotes on the idea of the light of the world being put out already. Of course, as far as he's concerned, it's a heliocentric universe if he makes himself out to be the sun. God, what an egomaniac.

I should shut up.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#8 | Back to Top11-03-2006 08:36:19 PM

G&Ysnumber1fan
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From: On the Isle of Lesbos
Registered: 10-25-2006
Posts: 82
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

emot-danceI have a simply marvelous idea!emot-dance

Erm, I'll be back to this topic eventually...


Akio..and James Brown(R.I.P.) have two things in common:
1)They are sex machines...
2)They are the only ones that could possibly make jumping over the windshield of a car look effortless..

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#9 | Back to Top11-03-2006 09:08:47 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Gio wrote:

I've always wondered but I suck at Japanese...the script translations show him to keep calling it a star, is he doing that? And does he also describe it as 'sparkling'? Because if he does, it's more proof he's completely evil and a total jackass. emot-mad

The line you're talking about is in episode 25.  The word Akio uses is "hoshi."  "Hoshi" is literally translated as star, but is also used, especially in vaguely poetic contexts, to mean "planet."  (God knows how many J-pop songs refer to Earth as "aoi hoshi," literally "blue star.")  To mean "sparkling" he chooses the verb "kagayaku," which means to shine, glitter, or sparkle.  So, yes, he does actually call it a star, and he does actually describe it as sparkling.  Guess he's a jackass  school-eng101

More on "hoshi!"  Venus's proper name in Japanese, the name Akio gives it before reintroducing it as the Morning Star, is "kinsei."  The kanji used to write the "sei" is the same one used to write "hoshi."  "Kin" means "gold," so Venus's name could equally well mean "golden star" if we didn't know better.

More on planets!  The first few planets (not counting Earth, which breaks the model) are Mercury, Venus, Mars, and Jupiter -- in Japanese, suisei, kinsei, kasei, and mokusei.  Literally, these mean "water planet," "gold planet," "fire planet," and "wood planet."  Sailor Moon fans are encouraged to find unifying themes of imagery based on these names.  They're also encouraged to learn the meanings of the kanji used to write the surnames of the Inner Senshi.

Last edited by satyreyes (11-03-2006 09:18:51 PM)

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#10 | Back to Top11-03-2006 09:20:09 PM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

satyreyes wrote:

Guess he's a jackass  school-eng101

He is, but not for this, I'm afraid. If he can use 'hoshi' poetically and 'kagayaku' can mean shine, then it checks out. I was going to jump his for describing a planet as sparkling. They don't. Which would have meant he was pointing Utena at something other than himself.

Which would have been very like him, I think. emot-mad


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#11 | Back to Top11-03-2006 10:13:10 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

In the original mange you immediately see that he has a planetarium and that he has a telescope inside of it.  I think that is a good metaphor for his coffin. He is caught in a mobius strip (always looking for the other side that does not exist) and somehow cannot grasp the fundamental absurdity.

I always assumed that Satan and Lucifer were the same, but in any case I think Akio genuinely liked astronomy. He suddenly turned against it when Anthy rebuffed his "star speech". Afterwards he took up photography. I guess I am wrong about this but I think the star that cannot be owned is Anthy herself. He may have given up on owning Anthy at that exact point and perhaps hopes he can own Utena instead.

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#12 | Back to Top11-04-2006 04:32:16 PM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

brian wrote:

In the original mange you immediately see that he has a planetarium and that he has a telescope inside of it.

Oh that's right, it does. I tend not to connect the manga, movie, and series, but you clearly do, which gives you a very different perspective. emot-smile But in this case it would seem to me significant that the series neglected that detail...

brian wrote:

I always assumed that Satan and Lucifer were the same, but in any case I think Akio genuinely liked astronomy. He suddenly turned against it when Anthy rebuffed his "star speech".

Oh. Ohhhh. I like this. I don't know that I agree with it, but I like it. It's so bitchy of him. Maybe it's not as absolute as you're drawing it out to be, but it does, now that you mention it, seem odd that those two exchanges line up close enough for someone to still be thinking about the first when the second takes place. Even if he's still working in the metaphor, as Anthy was at that point, it wouldn't matter that Utena is not. He'd still be bitchy about it, and that manner of bitchy does line up with what other bitchy moments he has in the series, like calling the play 'sophomoric'. He might as well have stuck his tongue out and rolled his eyes there.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#13 | Back to Top11-04-2006 05:53:05 PM

G&Ysnumber1fan
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From: On the Isle of Lesbos
Registered: 10-25-2006
Posts: 82
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

I think this would be a marvelous post if people would like to share their favorite astronomical images, I'll start with my sign, of course, which is Leo the Lion (Major).


http://www.astro.uiuc.edu/~kaler/sow/leo-p.html


Akio..and James Brown(R.I.P.) have two things in common:
1)They are sex machines...
2)They are the only ones that could possibly make jumping over the windshield of a car look effortless..

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#14 | Back to Top11-21-2006 07:43:32 AM

rhyaniwyn
Myth is my Bitch
From: Tallahassee, FL
Registered: 11-09-2006
Posts: 684
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

I found this article recently and thought it was relevant to the Lucifer/Satan discussion.  The Biblical quotes and interpretations sure remind me of Akio...

http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/2215

Apologetics Press :: Scripturally Speaking   
   
Is Satan “Lucifer"?
by Bert Thompson, Ph.D.

Q.
Isaiah 14:12 mentions the name of "Lucifer." I’ve heard it said that this is Satan. Are Lucifer and Satan one and the same?

A.
It is sad, but nevertheless true, that on occasion Bible students attribute to God’s Word facts and concepts that it neither teaches nor advocates. These ill-advised beliefs run the entire gamut—from harmless misinterpretations to potentially soul-threatening false doctrines.

Although there are numerous examples from both categories that could be listed, perhaps one of the most popular misconceptions among Bible believers is that Satan also is designated as “Lucifer” within the pages of the Bible. What is the origin of the name Lucifer, what is its meaning, and is it a synonym for “Satan”? Here are the facts.

The word “Lucifer” is used in the King James Version only once, in Isaiah 14:12: “How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!” The Hebrew word translated “Lucifer” is helel (or heylel), from the root, hâlâl, meaning “to shine” or “to bear light.” Keil and Delitzsch noted that “[i]t derives its name in other ancient languages also from its striking brilliancy, and is here called ben-shachar (son of the dawn)... (1982, 7:311). However, the KJV translators did not translate helel as Lucifer because of something inherent in the Hebrew term itself. Instead, they borrowed the name from Jerome’s translation of the Bible (A.D. 383-405) known as the Latin Vulgate. Jerome, likely believing that the term was describing the planet Venus, employed the Latin term “Lucifer” (“light-bearing”) to designate “the morning star” (Venus). Only later did the suggestion originate that Isaiah 14:12ff. was speaking of the devil. Eventually, the name Lucifer came to be synonymous with Satan. But is Satan “Lucifer”?

No, he is not. The context into which verse 12 fits begins in verse 4 where God told Isaiah to “take up this parable against the king of Babylon, and say, ‘How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!’” In his commentary on Isaiah, Albert Barnes explained that God’s wrath was kindled against the king because the ruler “intended not to acknowledge any superior either in heaven or earth, but designed that himself and his laws should be regarded as supreme” (1950, 1:272). The chest-pounding boast of the impudent potentate was:
   

"I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God; and I will sit upon the mount of congregation, in the uttermost parts of the north; I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will make myself like the Most High (vss. 13-14)."

As a result of his egotistical self-deification, the pagan monarch eventually would experience both the collapse of his kingdom and the loss of his life—an ignominious end that is described in vivid and powerful terms. “Sheol from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming,” the prophet proclaimed to the once-powerful king. And when the ruler finally descends into his eternal grave, captives of that hidden realm will taunt him by saying, “Is this the man that made the earth to tremble, that did shake kingdoms?” (vs. 16). He is denominated as a “man” (vs. 16) who would die in disrepute and whose body would be buried, not in a king’s sarcophagus, but in pits reserved for the downtrodden masses (vss. 19-20). Worms would eat his body, and hedgehogs would trample his grave (vss. 11,23).

It was in this context that Isaiah referred to the king of Babylon as “the morning star” (“son of the morning”; “son of the dawn”) to depict the once-shining-but-now-dimmed, once-lofty-but-now-diminished, status of the (soon to be former) ruler. In his Bible Commentary, E.M. Zerr observed that such phrases were “...used figuratively in this verse to symbolize the dignity and splendor of the Babylonian monarch. His complete overthrow was likened to the falling of the morning star” (1954, 3:265). This kind of phraseology should not be surprising since “in the O.T., the demise of corrupt national powers is frequently depicted under the imagery of falling heavenly luminaries (cf. Isa. 13:10; Ezek. 32:7), hence, quite appropriately in this context the Babylonian monarch is described as a fallen star [cf. ASV]” (Jackson, 1987, 23:15).

Nowhere within the context of Isaiah 14, however, is Satan depicted as Lucifer. In fact, quite the opposite is true. In his commentary on Isaiah, Burton Coffman wrote: “We are glad that our version (ASV) leaves the word Lucifer out of this rendition, because...Satan does not enter into this passage as a subject at all” (1990, p. 141). The Babylonian ruler was to die and be buried—fates neither of which Satan is destined to endure. The king was called “a man” whose body was to be eaten by worms, but Satan, as a spirit, has no physical body. The monarch lived in and abided over a “golden city” (vs. 4), but Satan is the monarch of a kingdom of spiritual darkness (cf. Ephesians 6:12). And so on.

The context presented in Isaiah 14:4-16 not only does not portray Satan as Lucifer, but actually militates against it. Keil and Delitzsch firmly proclaimed that “Lucifer,” as a synonym, “is a perfectly appropriate one for the king of Babel, on account of the early date of the Babylonian culture, which reached back as far as the grey twilight of primeval times, and also because of its predominate astrological character” (1982, p. 312). They then correctly concluded that “Lucifer, as a name given to the devil, was derived from this passage...without any warrant whatever, as relating to the apostasy and punishment of the angelic leaders” (pp. 312-313).

REFERENCES
Barnes, Albert (1950 edition), Barnes’ Notes on the Old and New Testaments—Isaiah (Grand Rapids, MI: Baker).
Coffman, James Burton (1990), The Major Prophets—Isaiah (Abilene, TX: ACU Press).
Jackson, Wayne (1987), “Your Question & My Answer,” Christian Courier, 23:15, August.
Keil, C.F. and Franz Delitzsch, (1982 edition), Commentary on the Old Testament—Isaiah (Grand Rapids, MI: Eerdmans).
Zerr, E.M. (1954), Bible Commentary (Bowling Green, KY: Guardian of Truth Publications).

Originally published in Reason and Revelation, October 1998, 18[10]:79.

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Last edited by rhyaniwyn (11-21-2006 07:47:44 AM)


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#15 | Back to Top07-13-2008 08:47:17 AM

dlaire
A Whole Orange
From: Poland
Registered: 04-08-2007
Posts: 2322

Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Well, IMHO his interest in stars shows how much he finds eternity amusing. He enjoys watching 'sparkling dead-stars' (stars could shine after their death, because light needs time to get from point A to point B blah blah..) as well as watching already dead Ohtori students.
For me, he just likes beauty and everything that he attempts to posses - no matter what: person or star. This explains why he wanted to name star..

..Maybe. emot-confused

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#16 | Back to Top07-13-2008 01:17:29 PM

Giovanna
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From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

dlaire wrote:

Well, IMHO his interest in stars shows how much he finds eternity amusing. He enjoys watching 'sparkling dead-stars' (stars could shine after their death, because light needs time to get from point A to point B blah blah..) as well as watching already dead Ohtori students.

I....totally overlooked this fact. emot-redface But wow, it really does fit! The analysis threads of late draw attention to the question of how alive the students in Ohtori are...you could certainly argue by the star metaphor that some are, and some are not...but that all of them appear far younger than they actually are.

Also says a lot that in Akio's whacky world of astronomy, Utena is a comet. Akio's a planet, she's a comet, everyone else are stars. Everyone else is slow (relative to a solar system), unmoving, dim. A comet can pass right through a solar system, it moves fast, and because it can get vey close, it can be roughly the age it actually is when you see it, suggesting Utena is not one of the people that's been in Ohtori's starmaps very long.

And of course....comets can crash into planets and destroy them.

Poor Akio. He needed Bruce Willis. emot-frown

Edit: Oh and I'm planning a section on the Akio shrine about the planetarium and may use conversations like this one for inspiration of the 'get off your ass and do it you douchehat' sort.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#17 | Back to Top07-13-2008 02:04:00 PM

Frau Eva
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Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 803

Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Alternatively, could him referencing being named after Lucifer be a veiled "I'm the King of Babylon"? I mean, sure it fits in the Biblical idea of Babylon being hedonism-central, but also the fact that Akio used to be a Prince in the dawn of human story and history. By referencing the King of the most ancient civilization, he could be drawing parallels to his royal roles in a story that shaped mankind.


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#18 | Back to Top07-13-2008 03:26:47 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Frau Eva wrote:

Alternatively, could him referencing being named after Lucifer be a veiled "I'm the King of Babylon"? I mean, sure it fits in the Biblical idea of Babylon being hedonism-central, but also the fact that Akio used to be a Prince in the dawn of human story and history. By referencing the King of the most ancient civilization, he could be drawing parallels to his royal roles in a story that shaped mankind.

I find it improbable that the cultural connoctations in the show go quite that deep. As Akio says, Lucifer is "an angel that chose the devil's path" - and that's the comparison he's making about himself. As for the whole Satan/Lucifer-thing, we just have to accept that in some stories these two are separate entities, while in others they are two names for one. Nobody says that mythology has to be consistent, after all.

Every time people talk about Akio's interest in stars, I remember that one scene that shows him and Anthy lying on top of each other post coitus, and while Anthy is solid and naked, Akio's body is filled with stars. I think this associates the two siblings with the classical sky-god/earth-goddess connection. Akio used to be up there, in the starry sky, in some sense, metaphorical or otherwise, and he years to be back there. That's how I his interest in stargazing. But he still rather looks at the false stars of his planetarium, that he has control over, than the real stars in the real sky...


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#19 | Back to Top07-14-2008 06:39:35 PM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Lightice wrote:

Every time people talk about Akio's interest in stars, I remember that one scene that shows him and Anthy lying on top of each other post coitus, and while Anthy is solid and naked, Akio's body is filled with stars. I think this associates the two siblings with the classical sky-god/earth-goddess connection. Akio used to be up there, in the starry sky, in some sense, metaphorical or otherwise, and he years to be back there. That's how I his interest in stargazing. But he still rather looks at the false stars of his planetarium, that he has control over, than the real stars in the real sky...

Interesting, because the first thing I think of when you say that is the story of Papatuanuku and Ranginui, who are the base-figures of Maori mythology. Papa is the earth-mother, Rangi is the sky-father. They were in eternal embrace and were actually separated by the fury of their children, forced to live in the darkness between their parents. I think it was mainly Tane's fault, Tane being the god of the forests, and the trees act as a sort of strut to keep them separated. Reminds me of the meaning of Utena's name. But that's a bit of weird trivia for you, because Maori myths are in general a bit cracked. I etc-love them. If I wasn't so ill today, I'd be really mad and try and draw a parallel between the story of Maui and his search for immortality and Akio's obsession with Anthy. Because apparently the only way to gain immortality in the Maori mythos was by passing through the body of the goddess of death. Which basically meant the reversal of the path of birth. Maui, being the man, gave this a good go. Apparently, though, it looked hilarious to the fantail watching proceedings, and it laughed. The goddess woke up and crushed Maui between her thighs. Oh, dear. Maori mythology, Freud would have loved you.

Still, though, I like the earth/sky comparison. It's obvious anyway, but Akio's got his tower reaching up to the heavens and Anthy's got her roses and her garden way back down on ground level. Do we ever see Akio in the rose garden? I can't remember. It seems very much Anthy's territory, even though a lot of the time her glass house is compared to a birdcage (or even a fish bowl, I suppose; she has no illusion of privacy in her life, given she is always surrounded by people). I can't recall Akio being in there, although I do know he kisses Utena in his car beside the conservatory. And he's always drawing Anthy into his planetarium. Still, there's a parallel for you: both of them have circular "spaces" that are their own, but while Anthy's is bright and light and invaded by others on a regular basis, Akio's is dark and high and lofty and invitation-only. Hmm.


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

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#20 | Back to Top07-14-2008 11:51:42 PM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

I'm just going to interrupt this otherwise intelligent and thoughtful conversation to make an utterly immature quip.

If Akio is a planet, Utena is a comet, and most of the students are stars - then Touga must be...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/wellworm/Atlas5rocketLMCOartist.jpg and http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/wellworm/750px-Black_Hole_Milkyway.jpg

That is all.


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#21 | Back to Top07-15-2008 03:05:31 AM

dlaire
A Whole Orange
From: Poland
Registered: 04-08-2007
Posts: 2322

Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Jellineck wrote:

I'm just going to interrupt this otherwise intelligent and thoughtful conversation to make an utterly immature quip.

If Akio is a planet, Utena is a comet, and most of the students are stars - then Touga must be...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/ … artist.jpg and http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/ … lkyway.jpg

That is all.

Who else thinks that Anthy is a Dark Hole?

(Sorry, I couldn't resist... emot-redface )

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#22 | Back to Top07-15-2008 03:16:26 AM

Clarice
Well hello, Clarice...
From: New Zealand
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 3102
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Jellineck wrote:

I'm just going to interrupt this otherwise intelligent and thoughtful conversation to make an utterly immature quip.

If Akio is a planet, Utena is a comet, and most of the students are stars - then Touga must be...

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/ … artist.jpg and http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e320/ … lkyway.jpg

That is all.

...Jelli, is that a rocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me? emot-biggrin


It takes forty-seven New Zealanders eight months to make just one batch of 42 Below Vodka. ...luckily, that leaves one of us free to be Prime Minister.

Beyond The Silver Leaves

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#23 | Back to Top07-15-2008 10:07:59 AM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Who else thinks that Anthy is a Dark Hole?

Hmm. According to Wikipedia, black hole is a region of space in which the gravitational field is so powerful that nothing, not even light, can escape its pull after having fallen past its event horizon. Not to mention it's the utter negation of stars, planets, comets, what have you (Gio please correct me on this). So I think it would describe Anthy's hoo-hoo pretty well.

...Jelli, is that a rocket in your pocket, or are you just happy to see me?

I did have one, but it exploded the moment you addressed me.


....etc-love

Quick. Someone write something serious!


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#24 | Back to Top07-15-2008 10:34:23 AM

Stormcrow
Magical Flying Moron
From: Los Angeles
Registered: 04-24-2007
Posts: 5971
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Oh, if you insist.

I like this thought of Gio's that not all of the students at Ohtori are even alive. Certainly you could make a case for Mikage being some sort of specter or wraith, but what about others? Leaving Movie!Touga out of the equation of course, too obvious. Is it possible that any of the other characters are just lingering dream images of some sort?


"The devil want me as is, but god he want more."
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#25 | Back to Top07-15-2008 06:08:13 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8728
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Re: The stars...Akio's obssession

Jellineck wrote:

Hmm. According to Wikipedia, black hole is a region of space in which the gravitational field is so powerful that nothing, not even light, can escape its pull after having fallen past its event horizon. Not to mention it's the utter negation of stars, planets, comets, what have you (Gio please correct me on this). So I think it would describe Anthy's hoo-hoo pretty well.

It would also make her the center of the...well, galaxy. And eventually the center of the universe if you wanna get really silly with astrophysics. emot-keke

By the way, a fed black hole is certainly never black, it shines with the light given off by objects still being devoured by it. It glows with the radiance of its victims but produces no light of its own. There's something about her relationship with Akio in there.

Stormcrow wrote:

I like this thought of Gio's that not all of the students at Ohtori are even alive. Certainly you could make a case for Mikage being some sort of specter or wraith, but what about others? Leaving Movie!Touga out of the equation of course, too obvious. Is it possible that any of the other characters are just lingering dream images of some sort?

That's the terrible thing, there's no way to tell by looking who is alive and who is dead. IIRC, you can determine much about a star, including whether it's coming toward you or moving away, but you cannot tell whether it's still alive, and that's not important on the most superficial level anyway. It's not important to Akio whether they're alive or dead if they still 'live' in the coffin.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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