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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top10-31-2006 12:20:33 PM

Arki
Dark Whisperer
From: Croatia
Registered: 10-28-2006
Posts: 1121

Right or Left Handed?

I've noticed something. Depending on which episode we're talking about, Utena sometimes holds her sword in her left hand and sometimes in her right. This just might mean she's ambidextrous or that the animators didn't pay attention in which hand she was holding the sword (though she doesn't switch hands inside an episode), but it also might not be. Perhaps there's some kind of meaning that passed above my head. Any thoughts on this? Maybe there's something similar to be said about other duelists aswell, but I haven't looked into it. Here's what I gathered from the Seitokai Arc:

[ep 1] When she chalanges Saionji in the Kendo house, left hand
[ep 1] When she duels, both hands. Then right hand when she finishes him off (brief moment)
Edit : [ep 2] Against Saionji, this time, left hand
[ep 5] Against Miki, left hand
[ep 7] Against Juri, right hand
[ep 10] Against Nanami, left hand
[ep 11] Against Touga, right hand
[ep 12] Against Touga, again, right hand

Last edited by Arki (10-31-2006 12:50:35 PM)

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#2 | Back to Top10-31-2006 12:40:42 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

What a very interesting observation!  I hope someone expands this list, because right now I can't make head or tail of it emot-smile  Well... unless Ikuhara's trying to metaphorically imply that Utena plays for both teams.  I'd expand it myself, but I'm dodging off to work emot-rolleyes  All I have time to add is: [ep 2] Dueling Saionji - left hand.  And Saionji holds his sword with both hands throughout the fight, but unsheathes it with his right.

Possibly relevant: Utena wears her ring on her left hand.

Last edited by satyreyes (10-31-2006 12:52:26 PM)

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#3 | Back to Top10-31-2006 01:24:34 PM

Arki
Dark Whisperer
From: Croatia
Registered: 10-28-2006
Posts: 1121

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Perhaps I should have payed attention to the other duelist (not just Utena), but I'll get round to that when I find some time, yup. About the [ep 2] Saionji observation, a thought crossed my mind that it might have something to do with conflicting opinnions. Because, usually the duelists fight for something that Utena either doesn't understand or doesn't agree with. That might even make sense, considering the [ep 7] when both Juri and Utena hold their swords in their right hand. But I can't make a conclusion based on two duels. Bleh, if only schoolwork hadn't cought up on me, I'd give it way more though. Dunno about the ring, though.

Situation update:

[ep 14] Against Kanae, right hand
[ep 15] Against Kozue, left hand until Anthy assists by touching the sword
[ep 17] Against Shiori, left hand, except in the repeated Dios sequence
[ep 18] Against Tsuwabuki, right hand
[ep 20] Against wakaba, none? Utena takes off Wakaba's rose using her right hand
[ep 21] Against Keiko, right hand (this one I had to pause to see)
[ep 22] Against Mikage - right hand (Mikage goes from left to right hand, after getting injured)

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#4 | Back to Top10-31-2006 01:58:19 PM

UtenaFanGirl
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From: California
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 145
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

i think it could have been change in animator groups

...in some episode you can totally tell when a different set of animators drew an episode vs another


Chu chuu CHU!!!!

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#5 | Back to Top10-31-2006 04:12:40 PM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

UtenaFanGirl wrote:

i think it could have been change in animator groups

...in some episode you can totally tell when a different set of animators drew an episode vs another

Much as I hate to say it, because this is the kind of detail Ikuni wouldn't normally miss, I think you may be right.  Saionji is left-handed in episode 1, but right-handed in 2 and 25.  (He holds the sword with both hands throughout 2, but his right hand is uppermost.)  Touga is left-handed in 11, right-handed in 12 (though he hands the sword to Anthy with his left), and right-handed in 36.  But Miki is right-handed in both 5 and 26, Juri is right-handed in 7 and 29 (vs. both Ruka and Utena), and Nanami is right-handed in both 10 and 32.  So I think there's something to be said for the "different artists" theory.

Interestingly, all the duelists (except maybe Utena; I didn't check) in the last season fight right-handed.  I think this is so they can use the dramatic shot of the duelist running in a curved line parallel to a car racing along the border of the arena.  It looks more dramatic if the sword is held on the side closer to the car, which forces all the duelists to be right-handed.

Again, it really surprises me, though, that this isn't consistent.  I want there to be a symbolic reason.  So I'm going to go with my original theory, which is that... oh.  Oh ho ho.  You know what it is?

The duelists that always fight with the same hand (Miki, Juri, and Nanami) are also the least bisexual.  (Miki may have had an "experience" with Touga, but he's definitely primarily het.)  Saionji and Touga, however, switch-hit.  How 'bout that?  Even the animators make fun of Utena's "engagement!"  Or so I will tell myself because I cannot stomach the thought that there is an error in my favorite anime.

Last edited by satyreyes (10-31-2006 04:19:12 PM)

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#6 | Back to Top10-31-2006 04:41:46 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

Then let's drag a symbolic reason out of our collective arses!

What about this? The characters are universally ambidextrous because it doesn't matter. After all it's not swordsmanship that wins these duels, and the sword fighting we're watching is really in the deepest sense symbolic. This would also support why the characters hop around sword styles pretty randomly, and no attention is paid to the fact that the sword Utena's swinging around would break that thin-ass plastic toy Miki's dueling with. Also, the Hindu religion finds the right hand pure and good and the left hand profane, which I've always suspected might have something to do with things, but I've never really dug into it.

What about whether they're right or left handed outside of the arena? Perhaps they've made a point to learn to fight with both hands as Mikage obviously did. (And he's the least like a swordsman, so you'd expect his skill level to be lower. LOL nerds don't do sports LOL) The only one I can comment on offhand there is Akio, who is consistently right-handed.

You'd think the sword-pulling would always be done with the dominant hand, but unless Saionji's genuinely ambidextrous (very possible, he does do a lot of masturbating...) that doesn't hold either.

Edit: If that were it, Akio would have been dueling with his right and left hands and feet. emot-tongue

Last edited by Giovanna (10-31-2006 04:43:11 PM)


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
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#7 | Back to Top10-31-2006 07:25:41 PM

Ragnarok
Caption Captor
From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

I always thought this corresponded to the hand of the duelist Utena was facing. I was happy with this answer and thus didn't look to closely to see if it was accurate. Now I don't know what to think!

Giovanna wrote:

Perhaps they've made a point to learn to fight with both hands as Mikage obviously did. (And he's the least like a swordsman, so you'd expect his skill level to be lower. LOL nerds don't do sports LOL)

He's the least like a swordsmen, but so is Utena! And he was supposedly undefeated against the hundred duelists. So in my same mindset as before, I figured his display of ambidexterity was meant to reflect Utena's habit of changing the hand she used depending on the duel.


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#8 | Back to Top10-31-2006 07:31:04 PM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar and sometimes the appearance of ambidextry(?) is just cel-shots put back to front.

The only way to be sure is to check with hand the ring is on, if the ring seems to have swapped hands, then its a cel reversal.

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#9 | Back to Top10-31-2006 08:33:46 PM

Arki
Dark Whisperer
From: Croatia
Registered: 10-28-2006
Posts: 1121

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Cell reversal was actually my first thought, but the ring is always on Utena's left hand. Maybe they did reverse cells, but gave it enough attention to switch the ring every time. But if they payed attention to such a minor detail, it wouldn't make sense for them not to notice the hand thing. My conclusion; It's a bonus for the really, really obsessive fans. (Who else would notice something like that and consider it relevant? :) Just another thing to confuse the watchers.

Giovanna wrote:

Edit: If that were it, Akio would have been dueling with his right and left hands and feet. :tongue:

Can't... Stop... Laughing... XD

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#10 | Back to Top10-31-2006 08:37:48 PM

Ger
Rose Smilee
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 139
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

I did notice this and was going to mention it on the forum actually, but it totally slipped my mind. I think it is in Touga's 1st or 2nd duel, can't remember which (or maybe it's Saionji? I rewatched this last week but already it's getting fuzzy in my brain). Touga is saying something to Utena, and then does a pass with his sword from one hand to another. I don't know much about swordsmanship, but I do know that it's rare to have people who can fight with both hands, just as it's rare to have guitarists who can play both right and left handed and snowboarders who can switch stances to either side. I haven't been paying attention to the other duellists, but I think Touga is the only one who we actively see switching sword-hands.

(then again, I'm not sure it WAS Touga...it might have been Saionji. Either way, there was only one episode school-chef)

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#11 | Back to Top10-31-2006 09:59:36 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Isn't it obvious? They're using their left hands when they're being sinister.

[/bad pun]


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#12 | Back to Top10-31-2006 10:11:12 PM

Joku_Krypfto
Saionji Slapper
From: Finland
Registered: 10-27-2006
Posts: 21

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Oh come on, am I really the only one whose first thought was this:

"I admit it, you're better than I am."
"Then why are you smiling?"
"Because I know something you don't know."
"And what is that?"
"I... am not left-handed."

"Oh, there's something I ought to tell you..."
"Tell me."
"I'm not left-handed either."


Originality is nothing.
Hypertextuality is everything.
Obey your hypertextuality.
☞ MOKUSHIKUSHIMOSHIMOKUKUMOSHIMOSHIKUSHIKUMO ☜

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#13 | Back to Top10-31-2006 10:18:58 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Right or Left Handed?

"My name is Saionji Kyouichi. You stole my Rose Bride. Prepare to die."


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#14 | Back to Top10-31-2006 11:03:30 PM

Yasha
Bitch Queen
From: Edmonton, AB, Canada
Registered: 10-15-2006
Posts: 6018
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

My life will only be complete when I hear Nanami shrieking 'INCONCEIVABLE!' emot-dance


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#15 | Back to Top10-31-2006 11:05:38 PM

Ivy-chan
Unfulfilled Juror
Registered: 10-19-2006
Posts: 232

Re: Right or Left Handed?

And Utena is the Dread Crossdresser Roberts, because no one would fear the Dread Crossdresser Utena.

Last edited by Ivy-chan (10-31-2006 11:08:20 PM)


If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulders of giants.
-Isaac Newton

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#16 | Back to Top10-31-2006 11:20:26 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

Ivy-chan wrote:

"My name is Saionji Kyouichi. You stole my Rose Bride. Prepare to die."

You win at the internet.


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#17 | Back to Top11-01-2006 01:18:20 AM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

Giovanna wrote:

If that were it, Akio would have been dueling with his right and left hands and feet.

Actually I'm sure he could use his biggest appendage as you can be sure its prehensile enough to hold a sword. etc-wankgirl

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#18 | Back to Top11-01-2006 01:30:22 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Right or Left Handed?

satyreyes wrote:

The duelists that always fight with the same hand (Miki, Juri, and Nanami) are also the least bisexual.  (Miki may have had an "experience" with Touga, but he's definitely primarily het.)  Saionji and Touga, however, switch-hit.  How 'bout that?  Even the animators make fun of Utena's "engagement!"  Or so I will tell myself because I cannot stomach the thought that there is an error in my favorite anime.

This cracks me up. I think I will use this as my theory.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#19 | Back to Top11-01-2006 03:36:56 AM

UtenaFanGirl
Ballgoer
From: California
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 145
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

lol but hell that theory works


Chu chuu CHU!!!!

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#20 | Back to Top11-01-2006 04:10:38 AM

Arki
Dark Whisperer
From: Croatia
Registered: 10-28-2006
Posts: 1121

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Wow, this is a revolutionary discovery! Since character sexuality must be one of the most disputed things in anime in general. Now we have an answer even to that. :D

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#21 | Back to Top11-01-2006 07:03:32 AM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

Arki wrote:

Wow, this is a revolutionary discovery! Since character sexuality must be one of the most disputed things in anime in general. Now we have an answer even to that. emot-biggrin

Seriously. Mikage makes quite a display of switching hands...but for switching hands to say something about sexuality, one of Mikage's hands must be much, much younger than the other. emot-gonk


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#22 | Back to Top11-01-2006 01:00:17 PM

Lightice
Azure Paleontologist
From: Finland
Registered: 10-21-2006
Posts: 1255

Re: Right or Left Handed?

In episode 36 Utena's sword actually becomes undecorated saber for few seconds, before turning back into the jeweled sidesword we love. There are inconsistencies in the animation, that's for sure.

As I understood, the Rose signet is in the left hand to resemble an engagement ring and that symbolism I leave for others to decipher.


Hei! Aa-Shanta 'Nygh!

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#23 | Back to Top11-01-2006 03:30:50 PM

Giovanna
Ends of the Forum
From: Edmonton, AB
Registered: 10-12-2006
Posts: 8731
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

Lightice wrote:

As I understood, the Rose signet is in the left hand to resemble an engagement ring and that symbolism I leave for others to decipher.

Everyone's engaged to Akio except Kanae. emot-biggrin (She has no ring to show their engagement.)

In all seriousness, I'd say the symbolism there, of them wearing the signet on their left ring finger, well...'till death do they part? Or...a form of death. Any way we can work eggs into wedding vows?


Also, do thou wear thine suits and cuffs, be thee male or no, for such attire doth please my girl parts. - Gios 3:15
Chiefest of Calamities

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#24 | Back to Top11-03-2006 12:48:00 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Right or Left Handed?

Giovanna wrote:

Lightice wrote:

As I understood, the Rose signet is in the left hand to resemble an engagement ring and that symbolism I leave for others to decipher.

Everyone's engaged to Akio except Kanae. emot-biggrin (She has no ring to show their engagement.)

In all seriousness, I'd say the symbolism there, of them wearing the signet on their left ring finger, well...'till death do they part? Or...a form of death. Any way we can work eggs into wedding vows?

The egg and the chicken need to resolve the age-old question before they get married, because if they wait until after there might be some disappointment on one part or the other.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#25 | Back to Top11-03-2006 01:34:32 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
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Re: Right or Left Handed?

Gio wrote:

In all seriousness, I'd say the symbolism there, of them wearing the signet on their left ring finger, well...'till death do they part? Or...a form of death. Any way we can work eggs into wedding vows?

Well... the Champion Duelist is "the One Engaged."  Naturally they have to wear an engagement ring.  It shows commitment to the Rose Bride (who, plz note, does not wear an engagement ring), and metaphorically to world revolution.  If you take your ring off you're abandoning that commitment, a symbolic act that's played with throughout the last two seasons.

...But Utena... ah, beautiful Utena.  She thinks of her ring as a symbol of commitment to becoming a prince, not to Anthy or to revolution.  She drives the point home constantly.  "Guys, she is not my fricking fiancée already -- shut up!"  And the fact that she doesn't consider herself engaged to Anthy helps her engage with Anthy in a way none of the other duelists do.  So Utena's ring is different.

As for working eggs into wedding vows, I suppose that'll happen when Nanami gets married in Massachusetts.  She's the kind of girl that lays eggs.

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