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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#51 | Back to Top12-07-2006 10:18:06 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
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Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

I think it also has something to do with the fact that Juri deliberately kept it from her. These two spent their entire childhood together. They probably had sleepovers, swam together, changed in the same room. Suddenly Shiori finds out Juri was lusting after her during some or much of that time?  That's going to be just a teensy bit shocking. It makes everything that's ever happened in their relationship suddenly suspect.

As well, homophobic or no, it's not unusual for someone to be made uncomfortable by knowing someone they have no desire for (but have frequently been around) was lusting after them. Once again, the abrupt way she found out doesn't help either.

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#52 | Back to Top12-07-2006 10:26:02 PM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Yeah, I think so. I feel bad for Shiori more than anything else. I know what it's like to have someone enamored with you when you really don't feel the same way. Of course, in that sense I also feel for Juri. But everyone feels for Juri.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#53 | Back to Top12-08-2006 04:42:13 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Ivy-chan wrote:

Wait, I must nitpick! Nanami looked into her reflection as well! *flees*

Actually, I was just referring to the Black Rose duelists. Mentioning Utena was more of an obligatory disclaiming, rather than a comparison of the two. I love that part of Shiori's elevator scene, so I'm glad that it was used in the second to last episode for Utena as well.

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#54 | Back to Top12-08-2006 07:00:34 PM

brian
Atlantean Singer
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 588

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

It's an awful cliche but perhaps neither have really good boundaries, especially Shiori. They don't know how to defend their boundaries. Perhaps mere growing up will solve a lot of that. I could even see Ruka bumping into them by accident a few months later after the Revolution. They will say, "Hi Ruka, we were just talking about you!" and then give him a pair of knowing, unsettling grins. He probably is better off dead.

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#55 | Back to Top12-08-2006 10:45:06 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

brian wrote:

He probably is better off dead.

Although, is he really dead?

*dashes off to start a new thread*


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#56 | Back to Top12-09-2006 01:38:10 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

brian wrote:

It's an awful cliche but perhaps neither have really good boundaries, especially Shiori. They don't know how to defend their boundaries. Perhaps mere growing up will solve a lot of that. I could even see Ruka bumping into them by accident a few months later after the Revolution. They will say, "Hi Ruka, we were just talking about you!" and then give him a pair of knowing, unsettling grins. He probably is better off dead.

I agree, growing up would solve a lot of problems. And I think that's what Utena's revolution was, it was allowing them to grow up and escape Ohtori and perpetual childhood.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#57 | Back to Top12-10-2006 06:47:23 AM

Syna
Rose Bride
From: Never-Neverland
Registered: 12-03-2006
Posts: 105
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Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Seconding/thirding/etc. the whole "she's too real to really hate" notion.... Juri fangirl that I am, I have my "OMG, SHE DOESN'T DESERVE JURI" moments, but when I'm rational (it happens occasionally) I see too much of myself in her pride, her paranoia, her inferiority. She's an extraordinarily rounded character - extraordinarily realistic, for someone who only shows up on three occasions. Her maliciousness, like Saionji's and Kozue's and Akio's, makes her difficult for me to fangirl over or anything, but that's just the thing. She's not there to be idealized, or admired. She's there to show us something very close and very unpleasant about the world.

It's interesting that what she most fears happens over and over... she's regarded and treated with contempt by everyone who knows about her who isn't Juri. Mikage, Ruka, the girls at school when Ruka breaks up with her. This lends some force to her dilemma: it's a vicious cycle. She's the way she is because of perceived contempt, and because she is that way, people DO think of her with contempt...

(One thing that bothers me about how people talk of Juri, though - unrelated, but... why does everyone call her a lesbian? Because she doesn't return Ruka's feelings? I think it's pretty clear that she doesn't reject him because he's male. I dunno, though, I don't think of any character in Utena with a fixed sexuality, and that's my bias school-devil)

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#58 | Back to Top12-10-2006 10:25:37 AM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
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Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

I would imagine people call her a lesbian because she only displays sexual interest in women, and none at all for any man, including ones she otherwise likes.

My bias is not to assume everybody's bisexual when there's no evidence to believe they are. emot-tongue

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#59 | Back to Top12-10-2006 12:05:19 PM

Hinotori
The Notable Death Mantis
From: Soviet Ohiostan
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 1333

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

In the manga she's attracted to Touga, so I think there's always that slight perception that she could be attracted to a man, because she has been... in an alternate universe.

Then again, I consider EVERYONE in SKU bisexual regardless of expressed preference. It seems that way they best match the decoration.


Hinotori made this post, and then went back and changed it later. Such is life.


It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit." - Harry Truman

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#60 | Back to Top12-10-2006 01:34:35 PM

Syna
Rose Bride
From: Never-Neverland
Registered: 12-03-2006
Posts: 105
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Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

My bias is not to assume everybody's bisexual when there's no evidence to believe they are.

I dunno, I suppose it's because when I say I'm bi, people either go (if they're straight) "you're just experimenting" or (if they're gay) "you're in denial," but it really bothers me when people assume someone's sexuality based on their attraction to one gender. It just assumes that there isn't this huge gray area in sexuality, and that we think of people in such rigidly genderdefined terms that we can't accept some nuance here and there.

I concur that in Utena, everyone is bi at heart. emot-biggrin

Last edited by Syna (12-10-2006 01:35:16 PM)

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#61 | Back to Top12-10-2006 01:46:29 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Hinotori wrote:

In the manga she's attracted to Touga, so I think there's always that slight perception that she could be attracted to a man, because she has been... in an alternate universe.

I don't think that her sexual preference in the manga should determine whether or not she's a lesbian in the anime. The series, movie, and manga are all separate from each other.

I think that most people assume that Juri's a lesbian because it's what we think the moment we see who is really inside the locket. One could argue that she is a lesbian rather than bisexual because she chose Shiori over that boy, even though he seemed to have more in common with her. Then again, perhaps Juri just saw Shiori as the better choice.

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#62 | Back to Top12-10-2006 01:58:45 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Haha, I just assume she has her own category - Shiorisexual emot-biggrin


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#63 | Back to Top12-10-2006 02:28:08 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

A Day Without Me wrote:

Haha, I just assume she has her own category - Shiorisexual emot-biggrin

I find it amusing that Shiori gets her own category of sexual preference. XD

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#64 | Back to Top12-10-2006 02:35:48 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Razara wrote:

A Day Without Me wrote:

Haha, I just assume she has her own category - Shiorisexual emot-biggrin

I find it amusing that Shiori gets her own category of sexual preference. XD

Well, Juri doesn't show any interest in anyone else, male or female, so why not?

And some people are just attracted to one person only, so defining it by gender seems foolish.

But it is still funny when people = a whole other category of sexual orientation emot-tongue


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#65 | Back to Top12-10-2006 05:40:36 PM

Hinotori
The Notable Death Mantis
From: Soviet Ohiostan
Registered: 10-23-2006
Posts: 1333

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

I wasn't saying that she was bisexual. I was saying it's easier for a fan to perceive her as bisexual after reading the manga, y'know...


Oh, and about the whole Shiorisexual thing. I mentioned this in that dirty sex subforum I post so much in, and I figure it bears repeating here.  I think a lot of fans overlook the presence of Shiori and Juri in eachother's lives and how that could motivate the other one. Shiori and Juri are most likely the most familiar thing in eachother's lives outside of actual relatives. From the sound of things their relationship didn't turn into what it is in the series until around the time both of them hit puberty. When the time rolls around for the other people to feel ways about things Juri automatically clings firmly to familiar territory and goes for the freaking girl next door while Shiori lashes out against what was probably an icon in her life for a long time and becomes actively antagonistic towards Juri. Maybe I'm making too many assumptions here, but it does say a little bit more about their characters.


Hinotori made this post, and then went back and changed it later. Such is life.


It is amazing what you can accomplish if you do not care who gets the credit." - Harry Truman

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#66 | Back to Top12-10-2006 06:54:16 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
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Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Syna wrote:

I dunno, I suppose it's because when I say I'm bi, people either go (if they're straight) "you're just experimenting" or (if they're gay) "you're in denial," but it really bothers me when people assume someone's sexuality based on their attraction to one gender. It just assumes that there isn't this huge gray area in sexuality, and that we think of people in such rigidly genderdefined terms that we can't accept some nuance here and there.

I concur that in Utena, everyone is bi at heart. emot-biggrin

See, in all seriousness, here's my problem with that. I don't assume anyone's in denial or just experimenting because they say they're bisexual. I think you're qualified to know and I'm not. But I get a vibe from many bisexual people (and have been told flat out by others) that they believe that, in fact, there is this huge grey area and everyone's "at least a little" bisexual. I find that similarly insulting as you do when people tell you you're really gay or straight, and for what I suspect is the same reason - who are they, who have experienced their own sexuality, to tell me that mine is "really" theirs?

But, seriousness aside, Utena's a fictional series with fictional characters. It doesn't pick my pocket or break my leg if you think Juri's bi, or Shiori is bi, or Tsuwabuki is bi, so go for it. I just don't believe so myself, as I prefer to stick with what there's actual evidence for in analysing the characters. Similarly, I think the notion of any threesomes in Utena (that are not Akio inserting himself into a canonical couple, which I think he could do) is silly, but hey, all the speculation over on that thread doesn't hurt me either. emot-biggrin

Last edited by Blade (12-10-2006 06:54:42 PM)

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#67 | Back to Top12-10-2006 07:06:03 PM

Syna
Rose Bride
From: Never-Neverland
Registered: 12-03-2006
Posts: 105
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Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

See, in all seriousness, here's my problem with that. I don't assume anyone's in denial or just experimenting because they say they're bisexual. I think you're qualified to know and I'm not. But I get a vibe from many bisexual people (and have been told flat out by others) that they believe that, in fact, there is this huge grey area and everyone's "at least a little" bisexual. I find that similarly insulting as you do when people tell you you're really gay or straight, and for what I suspect is the same reason - who are they, who have experienced their own sexuality, to tell me that mine is "really" theirs?

I can understand that, and I'm honestly all about respecting people's choices, especially with something as private as sexuality; however, I also think that our conception of sexuality, our contemporary one, is stupidly, pigheadedly binary. A gay guy falls in love with a woman? It's an isolated incident. A straight woman, with a history of being attracted to men, then has a relationship with a woman and only women after that? She was "really" lesbian all along. A lesbian who has relationships with women but marries a man? Oh, she was really hetero, just confused.

Am I the only one who thinks that's totally ridiculous? This is not to say genuinely homosexual and heterosexual people exist. I know people who -were- honestly misguided in their beliefs/experimentations, or who have never had a thought of any other kind of attraction, or whose attraction to the same or opposite sex is paltry compared to their attraction to the other one. But still - why do we insist on thinking of it so damn simplistically?

Not to mention that if you look at the history of sexuality, homosexuality and sexual attraction and orientation were, more often than not, conceived of completely differently. Right now, they're more than labels used to conveniently communicate with someone; they're core, unchangeable pillars of your identity. That really bothers me.

In Utena, we have context as well; the main characters who don't exhibit attraction to both sexes, or (to be fair) are hinted at attraction to both sexes, are a minority, and can be summed up in "Miki, Juri and Nanami." And those only exhibit attraction to one person. That's why it rubs me the wrong way when people go, "Oh, Juri's a lesbian, of course she didn't like Ruka" - because that's a silly way to think about it given the context of Utena (where nobody, nobody ever goes "oh sorry,  you're the wrong gender"). Juri's rejection of Ruka never takes on the character of "you're a man," for me. It takes on the character of "I'm in love with Shiori, and I may care about you somewhere but you're also being a collosal jerk to me." I feel as though it's jumping the gun to analyze Juri from the angle that she's a lesbian. That's not the way Utena works, and most of the time I honestly feel that outside of a cultural context where those things matter, that's not the way people work.

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#68 | Back to Top12-10-2006 07:38:09 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
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Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Uh, I'd say a lot more characters in Utena than that are only shown to be interested in one gender. In fact, the only characters that are in any situation at all with both genders (excluding Akio and Anthy, who are only arguably human) are Nemuro/Mikage (actually in love with both a man and a woman), Utena (and she's very iffy), Touga (who is all but stated flat-out to be a straight man who screws Akio for power), Miki (who may have been completely ignorant of the music teacher's intentions), Kozue (also iffy, but I'll give it for argument's sake), Wakaba (I doubt it intensely, but I'll once again give it for argument), and that's it. That's six people, and only if you assume everybody who there's even the slightest shadow of a doubt about (including people who deny they're bisexual, or who dislike bisexuality) is actually bisexual. If you only take people who actually, of their own free will, ever actually make any romantic moves on someone else, that's two (and Kozue's still dubious at best). If you want to include Anthy and Akio, that's still only four.

Nanami, Saionji, Juri, Shiori, Keiko, Tsuwabuki, Mari, Kanae, Mamiya, Ruka, Tatsuya and Tokiko never display any canonical hint of interest in more than one gender. That's twice as many as the most incredibly generous giving of bisexuality to any human character who there's even a shadow of doubt about, and three times as many as anybody who's ever given us any hard (har!) evidence that they are in fact bisexual (including the immortal inhuman people).  I don't think that's great grounds to declare everybody bi.  Once again, it doesn't hurt me that you think it, and you can if you like, but I don't see any reason to believe it.

I am aware and agree with you that human sexuality is a spectrum, not a on-off switch, but that's the case for almost every human trait. I can appreciate your dislike of the notion that "straight" and "gay", or even "straight, gay or bi?" is all there is. However, Utena is a work of fiction, and it's perfectly capable of giving people completely binary sexuality, just like most fiction does. And I would assume it pretty much does for the most part, with only one real bisexual in the series (Mikage), two inhuman people I wouldn't apply human sexuality to (Akio and Anthy), and one girl who really is only interested in getting her brother's attention by any means necessary (Kozue). emot-tongue The majority of people in Utena appear to be straight, a few are homosexual, and even fewer are truly bisexual... a ratio that mirrors what most people see in real life. Again, it's cool if you think otherwise, but that's what I've gleaned from an examination of what's actually in the show, and unless I missed something somewhere, I myself won't believe "everyone's bisexual" is in any way supported by the canon.

Oh,. and Juri rejects Ruka because he's a jerk. Obviously. emot-biggrin

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#69 | Back to Top12-10-2006 07:54:59 PM

A Day Without Me
Still Drunk in the Morning?
From: in the tulip garden!
Registered: 11-17-2006
Posts: 1584

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Hmm, just for the record, I'm a firm believer in the Kinsey Scale. This would make everyone at least a little bi, but people can be 99.9999% hetero or homo. I'm not trying to tell straight or gay people that they are actually actively attracted to both genders. But, after all, what do you fall in love with? A person, or their gender?

But, yeah, I don't think Juri's a lesbian. I'm also one of the few people, it seems, that think Utena isn't bi - I really don't think she and Anthy are involved.

Man, you can really see how conversations evolve on boards like this - look how far we've come since the first post in this thread!


"I'm bringing paxil back. (Yup)
My HMO might just pick up the tab. (Yup)
I got the tremors and I need a nap. (Yup)
I gave my rent check to them Pfizer cats."

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#70 | Back to Top12-10-2006 08:18:30 PM

Syna
Rose Bride
From: Never-Neverland
Registered: 12-03-2006
Posts: 105
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Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Uh, I'd say a lot more characters in Utena than that are only shown to be interested in one gender.

OK, some qualifications to a very hasty statement. I think most main characters of Utena at least show a -hint- of being attracted to both sexes, if they are in fact attracted to anyone, and anyone outside of their sibling (heh) - and if they are in fact shown long enough to establish any kind of attraction besides a single one. This, while not, perhaps, an indicator of bisexuality in everyone, is an indicator of sexual fluidity. We can debate the specifics if you like; those I'd consider without-a-doubt "bi" are Utena, Anthy, Akio, and Touga, those who are hinted at it to be Saionji, Shiori, perhaps (now that you mention it) Miki. The others are Juri (who, under some people's interpretations, does love Ruka, and though I don't believe that myself I can see why), Nanami (who is obsessed with Big Brother), Kozue (who clearly is willing to mess about with Anthy to fuck poor Miki up), Tswabuki (who is too young to be really attracted to anybody, or know what it means) and Wakaba (our token Normal Girl), and of course various screaming females including Keiko et all. Having not analyzed our dear Mikage et al as I should, I won't comment on those.

Whatever the numbers turn out to be, that's a -lot- of a main cast of characters that at least toy with the idea. (Out of curiosity, who can you say is without a doubt homosexual besides Juri?)

Perhaps I'm just more willing to grant it than you: I don't think Touga, for example, is flat-out said to be straight, nor bi, nor anything, because - and this is my major point, drumroll please! - sexual orientation is never, ever addressed in Utena! EVER! except in a really obviously facetious remark by Touga to Nanami. In a show with so much Gay, you'd think it would be, and it just isn't. Gender is never ever a factor in why anyone is attracted to anyone except maybe Utena's attraction to Akio/Touga as a Prince (and I'd argue that that's her being confused, given what her true memory of the encounter with the prince is). Just as, in the end, it isn't a factor in who serves as whose Rose Bride in the duels. I interpret this as meaning it's a non-issue.

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#71 | Back to Top12-10-2006 08:29:29 PM

Razara
Marionette Mistress
From: Wuzzy Happy Akio Town (What?)
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 4693

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

The characters in Utena usually relate to problems that real people go through. A normal girl who wants to be special, a girl who wants to be a prince, or a brother and sister dealing with the problems that twins face. It could be that Juri being a lesbian is what fits her into the category of those who are dealing with hidden lesbianism. Then again, she could just as easily be facing problems with bisexuality.

A person's sexuality may not affect who they fall in love with, but it does affect who that person is attracted to. It's hard to say whether Juri's feelings for Shiori is the kind of love that Anthy and Utena share, or lust.

If Juri does love Shiori for any reason other than lust, than I would like to hear what it is about her that she loves about her. The only time we ever see Shiori is when she's torturing Juri, so what is she like when they're getting along?

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#72 | Back to Top12-10-2006 08:53:52 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
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Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Syna wrote:

OK, some qualifications to a very hasty statement. I think most main characters of Utena at least show a -hint- of being attracted to both sexes, if they are in fact attracted to anyone, and anyone outside of their sibling (heh) - and if they are in fact shown long enough to establish any kind of attraction besides a single one. This, while not, perhaps, an indicator of bisexuality in everyone, is an indicator of sexual fluidity. We can debate the specifics if you like; those I'd consider without-a-doubt "bi" are Utena, Anthy, Akio, and Touga, those who are hinted at it to be Saionji, Shiori, perhaps (now that you mention it) Miki. The others are Juri (who, under some people's interpretations, does love Ruka, and though I don't believe that myself I can see why), Nanami (who is obsessed with Big Brother), Kozue (who clearly is willing to mess about with Anthy to fuck poor Miki up), Tswabuki (who is too young to be really attracted to anybody, or know what it means) and Wakaba (our token Normal Girl), and of course various screaming females including Keiko et all. Having not analyzed our dear Mikage et al as I should, I won't comment on those.

See, how can you say Touga is "without a doubt bi" when the only male he has sexual relations with is Akio? I'd probably have sex with Akio, and I'm not bi. emot-tongue

(And Keiko was never a screaming Utena fan, and she hates Nanami's guts, so that one confuses me even more.)

Whatever the numbers turn out to be, that's a -lot- of a main cast of characters that at least toy with the idea. (Out of curiosity, who can you say is without a doubt homosexual besides Juri?)

See, I don't agree that a lot of cast members toyed with the idea at all. As I said before, I think four characters toy with the idea, and two of them aren't human by any meaningful standard.

Mamiya might have been, it's hard to tell (due to Mikage's memories being so heavily distorted). That's it other than Mitsuko (most obscure named character in Utena go!), and neither are "without a doubt" due to lack of information.

Perhaps I'm just more willing to grant it than you: I don't think Touga, for example, is flat-out said to be straight, nor bi, nor anything, because - and this is my major point, drumroll please! - sexual orientation is never, ever addressed in Utena! EVER! except in a really obviously facetious remark by Touga to Nanami.

And yet you think "without a doubt" many people are bi, right?  So obviously it doesn't need to be directly addressed to draw some conclusions about at least what was shown on-screen. I think it's possible many people are bi, but only in the same sense that it's possible they're transsexual, Mormons, or space aliens. There's no evidence for it, so it's not canonical; I'd accept it in a fanfic if I felt it was believable, but not accept it as a given (and accordingly, I dislike every fanfic I've seen that's set up Juri and Shiori as a couple).

As for Touga's "facetious remark", I actually think that's very telling and not at all a throwaway comment. I don't believe for one instant that it is a coincidence that Touga, in the same storyarc where he's banging Akio, makes a very pointed statement on the "rightness" of heterosexuality.

In a show with so much Gay, you'd think it would be, and it just isn't.

So much gay... one person? emot-tongue

Gender is never ever a factor in why anyone is attracted to anyone except maybe Utena's attraction to Akio/Touga as a Prince (and I'd argue that that's her being confused, given what her true memory of the encounter with the prince is). Just as, in the end, it isn't a factor in who serves as whose Rose Bride in the duels. I interpret this as meaning it's a non-issue.

Erm, what would "make gender a factor" for you? People don't normally go "I love that person, because they're a woman!" in any other series either.

I would argue that Utena is in fact very steeped in gender roles and societal norms and thus I find it unlikely that it just tossed them aside in romantic relationships.

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#73 | Back to Top12-10-2006 08:59:20 PM

Blade
Sunlit Gardener (Finale)
From: Darkest Canada
Registered: 12-01-2006
Posts: 181
Website

Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

Razara wrote:

If Juri does love Shiori for any reason other than lust, than I would like to hear what it is about her that she loves about her. The only time we ever see Shiori is when she's torturing Juri, so what is she like when they're getting along?

*blink*

That's not the choice of words I'd use, but I'll assume, given your fellow Shiori-fan status, that that was tongue-in-cheek. emot-wink

I would guess that Juri loves Shiori's innocence, her easy conversation, her cheerfulness (both of which can be observed when we see her interacting with classmates), the fact they shared a great trust in each other through childhood, and the fact she's sexy (burgundy hair/violet eyes FTW!).  Really, love doesn't have to make a lot of sense. Plenty of people fall in love with people they're tragically incompatible with or share virtually nothing in common with.

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#74 | Back to Top12-10-2006 09:10:31 PM

Ragnarok
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From: Canada
Registered: 10-20-2006
Posts: 4472
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Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

If you're looking for flatout statements of sexual orientation you aren't going to find them in Utena. This is a very sexual series with innuendo up the ying-yang, but it's never brought up verbally. At least half of everything we 'know' about the series is due to interpretatoin of symbolism and metaphor.

It's easy enough to say "Utena and Anthy don't have sex during the series." Granted, there's no proof that they do. There isn't any proof that Touga and Akio do anything together beyond lying on the same bed with their shirts open. And it's easy enough to state that Utena doesn't show any sexual attraction to Anthy throughout the series because it's just not something you'd see blatantly. But I can't imagine anyone claiming there are no lesbian overtones in Utena and Anthy's relationship.

It's not grasping at straws to think that, in a show so rife with bisexual innuendo, only someone who actively pursues two people of different genders can be thought of as bi. It's a case where reading between the lines isn't just possible, it's vital.


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#75 | Back to Top12-10-2006 09:22:32 PM

Syna
Rose Bride
From: Never-Neverland
Registered: 12-03-2006
Posts: 105
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Re: Shiori: Pure Evil, Or Misunderstood?

See, how can you say Touga is "without a doubt bi" when the only male he has sexual relations with is Akio? I'd probably have sex with Akio, and I'm not bi.

Point A: "bi" was in quotes for a reason. Just using it as a stand-in for "experiences attraction of some kind to both sexes."
Point B: This is exactly what my initial ranty people-are-too-goddamn-binary-about-sexuality rant was about. Touga has relations with a man. How many people do you need to sleep with for that attraction to be valid? :/

(And Keiko was never a screaming Utena fan, and she hates Nanami's guts, so that one confuses me even more.)

No, I meant screaming fangirls in general - over men, though now that you mention it the fangirlism over Touga/Sainji resembles that toward Utena's.

See, I don't agree that a lot of cast members toyed with the idea at all. As I said before, I think four characters toy with the idea, and two of them aren't human by any meaningful standard.

"Human"? But they clearly were human once, and take human (gendered) form, yes? How does that not count? Do you want me to list all the suggestions at and actual indications of same-sex attraction in Utena? Because just off the top of my head, it's a long-ass list. emot-biggrin

And yet you think "without a doubt" many people are bi, right?

No, again, using that term out of total convenience. Again, I don't believe sexual orientation is an issue in the show.

So obviously it doesn't need to be directly addressed to draw some conclusions about at least what was shown on-screen. I think it's possible many people are bi, but only in the same sense that it's possible they're transsexual, Mormons, or space aliens. There's no evidence for it, so it's not canonical; I'd accept it in a fanfic if I felt it was believable, but not accept it as a given (and accordingly, I dislike every fanfic I've seen that's set up Juri and Shiori as a couple).

I guess we're thinking about "canonical evidence" differently. I'm taking a lot of stuff to be pretty strong hints: Kozue clearly making advances toward Anthy, for example, and Saionji in the lovely suggestive photo-shoot, etc. This is not necessarily saying - as I hope I have established - "Kozue and Sainji are bi." I don't know that. Nor do I know if they're really straight, for that matter (since the standards for straight or gay are more elusive, apparently, than who you're attracted to, or something :p). There is, through hints and through actual canonical evidence, an inordinate amount of homosexuality in this show.

As for Touga's "facetious remark", I actually think that's very telling and not at all a throwaway comment. I don't believe for one instant that it is a coincidence that Touga, in the same storyarc where he's banging Akio, makes a very pointed statement on the "rightness" of heterosexuality.

I doubt it. It's in a Nanami humor episode, and taken to heighten the humor, and probably, I think, to keep Touga's "righteous Big Brother" image with his little sister (when do you ever see him moralize over his relations with Akio otherwise? that's a lack of canonical evidence if there ever was one).

So much gay... one person?

Let's see. Juri. Akio/Touga's liscentiousness. The often very sexual Anthy/Utena artwork, even if they aren't together in the series (which I have my own opinions about, but I'm not going into it). over-the-top suggestive Akio/Touga/Saionji photoshoots (this is shoujo, they know their audience, and I they know their audience likes to see men go at it). Going on would require my dredging things up from my memory, which I can, by all means, do, but if you're looking for it, it's there loud and clear.

Erm, what would "make gender a factor" for you? People don't normally go "I love that person, because they're a woman!" in any other series either.

Nobody questions an attraction because of someone's gender, I mean. In the Shiori/Juri thing, the most blatant example of it, nobody ever goes, "but Juri, she's a GIRL! YOU MUST BE A LESBIAN! emot-aaa OH NO. YOU'RE GOING AGAINST SOCIETY." That's my point. 

I would argue that Utena is in fact very steeped in gender roles and societal norms and thus I find it unlikely that it just tossed them aside in romantic relationships.

I don't see this at all. Gender roles and norms are largely there to subvert. I just don't see any evidence of this.

Last edited by Syna (12-10-2006 09:25:35 PM)

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