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Gougai! Gougai!

HOLY SHIT PEOPLE, IT'S NOT BAD ENOUGH WE'RE GETTING AN UTENA EXHIBITION RIGHT NOW

THEY. ARE. MAKING. A. NEW. MUSICAL. NEXT. YEAR. START LOSING YOUR SHIT RIGHT NOW

#1 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:02:56 AM

Dross
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 10-19-2007
Posts: 67

WTF. Shiori.

Shiori.

WTF.

Shiori was a sadomasachist and a sociopath. And she had, in my opinion, no clear, actual reason for it.

I just don't understand the reasons for Shiori love.

Reason 1: People hate Shiori because we like Juri because Juri is teh pretty and we like pretty things.

No, people don't generally like people who hurt someone for no actual reason. It doesn't matter who it is, if they're pretty or cool or not. And don't give me because was jealous of Juri and she couldn't handle her own feelings of inadequecy. Just because there is a tenuous motivation for the pain she caused someone who didn't deserve it, doesn't make her admirable. Just mean.

Reason 2: One of the reasons so many seem to like Shiori is because they are able to identify with the part of themselves that wants to destroy someone who they perceive as "more special" than they are, or seem to be getting undue attention.

Let's just say, for the sake of argument, Juri's popularity wasn't merited. Not like she wasn't captain of the fencing team and one of the few members on the student council and Shiori wasn't accomplished in anything on her own.

Is it really that interesting to not just WANT to hurt someone as much as possible, but actually DO it. And again, for what reason?

Juri never hurt her. (Not intentionally anyway, and if Shiori had any sense of personal responsibility she wouldn't blame Juri for her own short comings. She would maybe find something to base her personality off of other than hate. It's like she thinks because she can't rise up in some way, she has to bring Juri down.)

Reason 3: Shiori and Ruka employed the same tactics, why is Ruka loved and Shiori not? Oh, 'cause of the bishy and the male thing.

No, SHIORI was a cruel bint with only personal motivation. Either she genuinly liked Ruka, or she was using Ruka to hurt Juri.

RUKA, very strategically, was being a cruel bint in order to gain the Power of Dios, the Power of Miracles, and FREE Juri. He was far more cruel to Shiori, toying with her emotions for the PURPOSE of making her a bride. For the PURPOSE of setting Juri free.

So...I mean honestly. Shiori? What is so deep about placing the blame for her own failures on others and then using that energy to hurt someone who has never harmed her in any way. And sadly, no matter what she did.

Last edited by Dross (10-28-2007 01:25:38 AM)

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#2 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:04:45 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Um... I think this is going to explode.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#3 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:06:50 AM

Emiemipoemi
Troublesome Insect
Registered: 12-10-2006
Posts: 649

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Honestly, I can sort of understand this. Even after reading all the +Shiori threads on IRG I still can't bring myself to sympathize with her. I'm certainly not saying that you guys can't like her. I just . . . don't. :/

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#4 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:07:06 AM

Dross
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 10-19-2007
Posts: 67

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Emi and I were talking about this.

She ENCOURAGED IT.

I mean, discuss all ya want.

I wash my hands, I said my piece. I don't want to battle anyone. No one is gonna change their minds, I get that, but it just seemed like a little balance was needed.

Some Shiori hate X3

Edit: And i mean "hate" in a tongue-in-cheek way, don't try to kill me. school-devil

Last edited by Dross (10-28-2007 01:11:34 AM)

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#5 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:08:25 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I don't like her either, I'm just saying that the intensity of the hate may cause some tempers exploding.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#6 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:13:00 AM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Hm, Dross. You do realize the Shiori fans here will give very passionate responses? I feel obligated to as well, but I doubt it will really change much. Ulimately, I feel Shiori is misunderstood, but I'd still like her even if she was pure evil, much in the same way others enjoy Akio or Touga. You seem like we Shiori fans justifying her actions and even idolizing her as a heroine. I think that we all pretty much realize that she is no role model. Few in Utena are.

But I'm surprised you would make a distinction of her being PARTICULARLY evil. Shiori, in comparison, is tame. You say she is cruel for a poor reason. Well, Akio may seek a goal, but it's the worthless endless end of a man trapped in his coffin. And in addition to being manipulative and sadistic beyond the excuse of purpose, his influence on Mikage also indicates he's not afraid to kill to accomplish his ends. So how is Shiori worse than him? You say she has no good reason. Neither does anybody else. The whole point of the Ohtori population is that they're seeking an impossible illusion.

Honestly, I can sort of understand this. Even after reading all the +Shiori threads on IRG I still can't bring myself to sympathize with her. I'm certainly not saying that you guys can't like her. I just . . . don't. :/

She's not intended to be likable in any regard. I can't really say I even "like" her, in the conventional sense. If anything, the character I sympathesize personally the most with is Juri. I personally find her interesting. And a large part of her appeal comes from her unpopularity. So I don't really mind those who dislike her, but I do like to know why.

Last edited by Jellineck (10-28-2007 01:16:10 AM)


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#7 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:14:11 AM

Emiemipoemi
Troublesome Insect
Registered: 12-10-2006
Posts: 649

Re: WTF. Shiori.

If anything, Shiori certainly draws strong emotions from people. She's a dynamic and important character.

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#8 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:16:40 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: WTF. Shiori.

There really isn't a whole lot of Shiori love as far as I can tell... she has a few very devoted fans but that's about it - the majority of the SKU fans seem pretty ambivalent toward her, as she's an important part of the story but not widely appealing.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#9 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:17:21 AM

mazoboom
The Boom King
From: New Orleans
Registered: 09-08-2007
Posts: 445
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

It's the "NO GOOD REASON" part that will get you in trouble with the hardcore fans. Lots of people will claim that there is good reason for what she does.  But this is why I try not to "like" or "dislike" characters in a fiction.  That seems to me the wrong way to go about it.  To me, the characters are there to tell the story.  Their likability doesn't really matter in the long run as they all contribute something to a story.  I feel like the only reason I would ever dislike a character is if they added nothing to the story.

Last edited by mazoboom (10-28-2007 01:18:24 AM)

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#10 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:18:02 AM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: WTF. Shiori.

If anything, Shiori certainly draws strong emotions from people. She's a dynamic and important character.

Agreed. A lot of the characters in Utena are like mirrors; they reflect the opinions of the viewer. Somebody brought up that significance with Anthy, and there's even an essay on that. But Shiori is very interesting because people who dislike her tend to enjoy Akio and Touga. Why? Some people it's a matter of skill, some people boil it down to gender. Varies.

Last edited by Jellineck (10-28-2007 01:18:44 AM)


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#11 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:21:36 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: WTF. Shiori.

She's most often compared to Ruka really, I think both because of their twisted relationships with Juri and the fact that we see comparatively little of both of them.

Ruka is more popular than Shiori, yes, but by how much? I know a lot of people don't like him as well. Hell, he's my favorite character and I don't like him.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#12 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:25:35 AM

satyreyes
no, definitely no cons
From: New Orleans, Louisiana
Registered: 10-16-2006
Posts: 10328
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Needless to say, I expect our usual high level of discourse on this thread emot-smile  Everyone should bear in mind that we're discussing fictional characters, not real people; criticism of Shiori is not an attack on Shiori fans.  If anything, it's the opposite -- I think IRG's high-profile Shiori fans are very thoughtful, fascinating posters, all the more so because they love a character I don't much like.  I'll be very interested to hear what Razara, dollface, et al. have to say about Dross's points!

Last edited by satyreyes (10-28-2007 01:26:08 AM)

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#13 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:31:43 AM

Emiemipoemi
Troublesome Insect
Registered: 12-10-2006
Posts: 649

Re: WTF. Shiori.

lol just so you're aware Dross is terrified now that she's gonna get reamed by the people on this forum for questioning a character so strongly.

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#14 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:33:01 AM

Emiemipoemi
Troublesome Insect
Registered: 12-10-2006
Posts: 649

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Jellineck wrote:

high-profile Shiori fans

Erm...do I count? I want to be a member of the Shiorority...

lol I would think if you consider yourself one you can probably be a member of the Shiorority. Of course, I can't say that's official. emot-biggrin

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#15 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:33:16 AM

Dross
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 10-19-2007
Posts: 67

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I'm like Mark Wahlberg in the Big Hit.

'Cept I use stronger language X3

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#16 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:34:41 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: WTF. Shiori.

It's one thing to say you don't like a character. It's entirely something else to all-out attack her with emotionally loaded language and many generalizations.

Last edited by ShatteredMirror (10-28-2007 01:35:07 AM)


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#17 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:37:20 AM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Whoops. Tried to edit but ended up deleting.

I would think if you consider yourself one you can probably be a member of the Shiorority. Of course, I can't say that's official.

Or I could be one of those rogue renegade Shiori fans, rebelliously defying the mainstream Shioirites XD And don't worry, Dross. I rather enjoy good controversy. There's nothing wrong with disliking Shiori, though it sounds like you foster quite a grudge against her. If you don't mind me asking, how do you find her different from Touga and Akio? How is she worse?


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#18 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:43:17 AM

Dross
Mikage Mistruster
Registered: 10-19-2007
Posts: 67

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Shattered Mirror: I might giva ya emotionally loaded language, but I fixed it up a bit for a better beta read X3

Although I'd have to disagree with many generalizations. I think I was pretty to the point. I mean, certainly there is room for disagreement and all X3

Jellineck: I don't really foster a grudge, or find her better or worse than any other character. I just was talking about it with Emi, and was asking if I missed something I didn't remember about Shiori. So I read through some posts people made about her to get a grasp on that perspective, and I just thought some of the points they made could be answered to.

And so...it's not so much a  question as to why, but why not?

Last edited by Dross (10-28-2007 01:44:01 AM)

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#19 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:47:46 AM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I don't really foster a grudge, or find her better or worse than any other character. I just was talking about it with Emi, and was asking if I missed something I didn't remember about Shiori. So I read through some posts people made about her to get a grasp on that perspective, and I just thought some of the points they made could be answered to.

My apologies. It's difficult to detect emotion in typing, but you just seemed rather passionate.


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#20 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:49:29 AM

Maarika
Someday Shiner
From: Estonia
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 2510
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

I'm not a Shiori fan but it makes me sort of  sad seeing her being bashed so often. Why don't I ever come across threads where Anthy is being bashed especially because she was a much horrible person than Shiori?

Dross wrote:

No, people don't generally like people who hurt someone for NO REASON. It doesn't matter who it is! And don't give me that she was jealous of Juri and she couldn't handle her own feelings of inadequecy. Just because there is a tenuous motivation for the pain she caused someone who didn't deserve it, doesn't make her admirable or interesting. Just mean.

Indeed, but this is a reason anyway. A reason can be anything, nobody says you have to like the it. Jealousy is a very strong emotion and it can drive people into doing horrible things. People don't generally like it, you're right. But being human and having those feelings...is that wrong? emot-confused
There is no one in SKU acting without a reason, but whether we understand those reason depends solely on ourselves. With that being said, I don't expect everyone to be able to understand every character because different people perceive them differently.

As I said, I'm not a Shiori fan, and I don't find her admirable.  However, she is one of the most complex and realistic characters in SKU which is why I find her interesting. I don't care if you bash Shiori or not, but saying there's no reason behind it makes it unacceptable to me. There is always a reason, even if we may not like it. And hating someone is fine too as long as you understand why they've acted the way they did.
From my own point of view, I find it very hard to hate any character after seeing episode 39 simply because they are not the same people that they were in the beginning. And Shiori is no exception.

Also, could someone make a thread for bashing Anthy next time? All those Shiori threads are getting old in the long run. e_e


The Saionji Support Squad:
Believing in True Friendship Since 2008.

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#21 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:53:12 AM

mazoboom
The Boom King
From: New Orleans
Registered: 09-08-2007
Posts: 445
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Maarika wrote:

Also, could someone make a thread for bashing Anthy next time?

Anthy's a jerk! She stole my girlfriend, crashed my car, and took all my money! emot-tongue

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#22 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:56:24 AM

Jellineck
Wondrous Sexual Eggplant.
From: Under your bed
Registered: 08-02-2007
Posts: 894

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Also, could someone make a thread for bashing Anthy next time?

Eh. Too common. I'm just waiting for a Chu-Chu bashing haven. Honestly, I detested that thing, and I'm firmly convinced he's behind most of the evils at Ohtori. In some ways I'm not even joking. I always thought he played a certain sort of malicious significance. I mean, he dressed up like Akio, for Dios's sake.


"You said you would do anything for me, right Mamiya?" Mikage purred as he slithered close. "Yes that's right" Mamiya said with a rosey blush. Mikage's smile was evil and cinister as he reached into his pocket and pulled out a banana. "Eeny meeny myny moo. I wonder where my banana will go?" - The Forbidden Passions of Nemuro

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#23 | Back to Top10-28-2007 01:58:20 AM

ShatteredMirror
Yaoi Pet #1
From: Sacramento, CA
Registered: 10-22-2006
Posts: 8858

Re: WTF. Shiori.

Perhaps "generalizations" was imprecise, which really given what I was saying I've no right to be. I meant less in terms of generalizations about your point and what you were saying, but rather that your declarations about her motives and judgment of whether they made her actions justifiable were very... hrm... far-reaching?

Dross wrote:

RUKA, very strategically, was being a cruel bint in order to gain the Power of Dios, the Power of Miracles, and FREE Juri. He was far more cruel to Shiori, toying with her emotions for the PURPOSE of making her a bride. For the PURPOSE of setting Juri free.

I think you're giving Ruka too much credit here, but my ideas about that belong in a Ruka thread.


Pride is not the opposite of shame, but its source.

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#24 | Back to Top10-28-2007 02:40:40 AM

Decrescent Daytripper
Best Disney Princess
Registered: 04-09-2007
Posts: 2788

Re: WTF. Shiori.

As a character, Shiori's actions and motivations are quite confused and trauma-based, which is intriguing.  As a plot-mechanism, she's bitter and wicked and sharp, which gets things moving where nicer characters would all, y'know, be playing nice too much and not providing us entertaining drama and crises.  As a a ball of weird little twitches of guilt, yearning, confusion and enthusiasm, she's good for culling gut reactions of grief, frustration, anger, laughter and/or oh, honey, no, you really don't want to...!  She makes a good vehicle for a lot of emotional baggage that's not necessarily as simple or direct as many of more primary characters (not that they're that simple, either), which made her a great bizzaro-Utena in the movie, and probably made her a great car, too.  And she was a great car.

Also (perhaps more honestly, in my case, I'm so surface): good hair and a great throw-head-back pose in the movie, while Touga's doing her nails.


My Brain is the Wakaba and Shiori Funtime Hour. With limited commercial interruption.

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#25 | Back to Top10-28-2007 03:21:04 AM

Tamago
God of Comedy
From: Minami Goushuu
Registered: 10-17-2006
Posts: 14280
Website

Re: WTF. Shiori.

There is nothing wrong with venting your love or hate for a character as long as you don't attack the fans for no good reason and you don't end up acting like those trolls and dickheads that seem to populate in many other forums.

As for Shiori, before I was able to watch the SKU series, the only thing I thought of when I saw movie Shiori is: WHAT A MEAN BACK-STABBING LITTLE SHIT!, I mean, when the Shiori car crashed, I wasn't exactly shedding any tears I can tell you.

When I watched the series, I gave her very little thought during the first arc but found her more interesting during the 2nd and 3rd arcs but on the whole, it wasn't until Razara and dollface posted essays on her that I really took notice of her. emot-keke

But Nanami is still more of my favourite than Shiori or Kozue.


http://i117.photobucket.com/albums/o50/spatulasama/DooDah.jpg

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